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***MadMos*** · March 2nd, 05:45 PM

OK so I was doing some searches here and came across a very interesting thread. It was some kid ranting how hpa sux and co2 rules. Well the thread continued with him getting flamed of course. But a couple of pages in someone chimed in about using a syphon tank that's purpose is to allow liquid into the gun. I forget the exact reasoning but the consensus was this makes the co2 as consistent as hpa. It stated you can only use this on high pressure blow back guns but that on those guns it works great. Can someone shed some light on this for me? Where would I get a tank like this? Is it just setting up a tank the opposite of anti-syphon? You put the tube facing down to get nothing but liquid? I don't understand.

**tippmannbeast** · March 2nd, 05:57 PM

just to clear things up:
-Siphon tube set up: when you get a SIPHON tube installed in your Co2 tank it means the tube will be pointing DOWN, sucking up liquid only. This was used mostly on one or two OLD models of tippmann markers, and I THINK that one was the Pro. Their valve system was such that they functioned with Liquid Co2. This is very uncommon in markers today.

-Anti-siphon- this is the very common setup in which the tube is pointed up so it only draws gaseous Co2.

The guy who posted the thread must be crazy, or just had his terms mixed up. If you have the link, then post it.

***MadMos*** · March 2nd, 06:02 PM

here is the link it is a post by hp_lovecraft. His first post is on page 3 and he posts a couple more times about it further on. The post was on September 24th and he states that he still only runs liquid on all his guns except the ones that require HPA

http://www.paintballforum.com/forum/...ht=syphon+tank

**Cocker16** · March 2nd, 06:55 PM

I think HP said somethin bout this also.

**tippmannbeast** · March 2nd, 06:58 PM

well, I was wrong then. PM nick (lovecraft) and ask him.

***MadMos*** · March 3rd, 09:10 AM

Well I did PM him and here was the response from Nick

"Yes, a Siphon works the opposite of an anti-siphon, and gives the gun all the benefits of HPA- No shootdown, no spikes, works well in the cold.

All blowbacks can run a siphon, but I'm not 100% sure about the A5 because of the pneumatic feed. The extra boost from a siphon might damage the ram?

I'd suggest CALLING Tippmann. Back in the 90s, nearly ALL Tippmann guns RAN ON SIPHONS, so they obviously know about them. And I'm sure they would know what happens when you put a siphon on an A5

Nick"

So I took his advice and called Tippmann support. Which BTW is excellent. And they confirmed that a syphon tank is perfectly safe on all of their guns including the A-5. In fact he went as far as to say that if you want consistency in pressure and fps with co2 that he recommends it. The Tippmanns are built expecting liquid to get in the gun. As long as the gun is well maintained (cleaned and oiled) syphon is a great way to go. I will try it out tonight with my chrono and report back.

Thanks Nick

**RandomSkater** · March 3rd, 09:29 AM

interesting. How much does it cost get get co2 tanks syphoned?
Also, since you're putting liquid into the marker, does that mean that more of the liquid "smoke" gets shot out when it's cold?

I'm asking the last question becuase once i was shooting a 98 when it was like 40 and there was alot of liquid coming out, I was shooting my a5 when it was about 15 or 20 the other day and there was none.

***MadMos*** · March 3rd, 10:12 AM

A syphon tank is the same as an anti-syphon except the tube is bent downwards into the liquid instead of up above the liquid

***MadMos*** · March 3rd, 10:15 AM

FYI this is just a low cost alternative to HPA. If you have a HPA tank then by all means that is the way to go. Also, on some higher end guns this will destroy them so use with caution. I have confirmed this is ok with spyders (and copies) and tippmanns only.

**HP_lovecraft** · March 3rd, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadMos

So I took his advice and called Tippmann support. Which BTW is excellent. And they confirmed that a syphon tank is perfectly safe on all of their guns including the A-5.

Thats good info on the A-5! I always wondered if it would work.

I've run siphon tanks on nearly all my guns since 1990. It has some great advantages, but it also has some special considerations that might not make it sutable for many players.

In short, running a siphon will give you all the advantages of running HPA at a FRACTION of the cost. Siphon tubes cost the same as anti-siphon tubes, and no need for a reg, EC, or LPC.
How does it work?

Well, consider the problems with CO2. It is temp sensitive, and has wicked spikes and shootdown. Much of this is because the liquid boils off in the tank, making it cold.

With a siphon, liquid CO2 is forced INTO THE VALVE, and boils to gas IN THE BARREL and NOT THE TANK. This is VERY IMPORTANT for 2 reasons:
1- The tank never gets cold because the liquid expands in the barrel.
2- The ball is pushed out by the expansion, and NOT the PSI.

This means you will never gets spikes or shootdown. FPS will be extremely consistent, and your gun will work all winter long without problems.
So why doesnt everyone use it? Good question:

Siphons have some major flaws:
1- Regulated guns can not use one. Guns like Mags, Cockers and most "high-end" guns would die a horrible death if a siphon was attached by accident.
2- At the chrono, you need to rapid firing BEFORE shooting over the chrono.
3- It might be hard keeping FPS up above 90 degrees
4- Large CO2 cloud when humid.

In the end, if you can afford HPA, then HPA works just fine. But I like the simplicity of unregulated CO2, and the only way to compete with HPA is to run a siphon.

FOR MORE INFO:
Link to SIPHON INFO page I wrote:
Link to SIPHON INFO page Doc Nickel wrote:

Alpha · March 3rd, 03:35 PM

Doc Nick? Isn't that you?

From what Nick has taught me, it sounds like a siphon tank would work extremely well in cold weather situations. He lives up in Maine so I'm sure he can appreicate that.

I might look into running one when I get my pro lite/pro carbine. Only thing is the gas through pistol grip on those gets cols. I remember using my SL-68 II in the winter without gloves.. Man was it brutal.

**HP_lovecraft** · March 3rd, 03:40 PM

Just don't accidentally put that siphon on one of your mags!!

Alpha · March 3rd, 03:46 PM

My mag only eats the cleanest of all air. One itme I went up to the fill station and I was all " Hi,I'd like 4500pounds of your finest air". The guy looked at me for like 5 minutes, then filled my tank.

**HP_lovecraft** · March 3rd, 05:57 PM

I'll take anything... clean... dirty... doesnt matter.

Mags have a fair bit of small parts, so they really like clean air.

I remember back around 91-93 before anyone really knew of dirty air, automags that were a year old started having a strange problem with the valve sticking. This meant the first shot was WICKED hot, then normal after that.

Teams were loosing tournaments because of Mag "spike" penalities at the chrono. It was a mystery until people started removing there reg-seats, and noticed all kinds of crap in there.... So they added filters... and problem solved!

Nick

**Triggahappykid** · March 3rd, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HP_lovecraft

Thats good info on the A-5! I always wondered if it would work.

I've run siphon tanks on nearly all my guns since 1990. It has some great advantages, but it also has some special considerations that might not make it sutable for many players.

In short, running a siphon will give you all the advantages of running HPA at a FRACTION of the cost. Siphon tubes cost the same as anti-siphon tubes, and no need for a reg, EC, or LPC.
How does it work?

Well, consider the problems with CO2. It is temp sensitive, and has wicked spikes and shootdown. Much of this is because the liquid boils off in the tank, making it cold.

With a siphon, liquid CO2 is forced INTO THE VALVE, and boils to gas IN THE BARREL and NOT THE TANK. This is VERY IMPORTANT for 2 reasons:
1- The tank never gets cold because the liquid expands in the barrel.
2- The ball is pushed out by the expansion, and NOT the PSI.

This means you will never gets spikes or shootdown. FPS will be extremely consistent, and your gun will work all winter long without problems.
So why doesnt everyone use it? Good question:

Siphons have some major flaws:
1- Regulated guns can not use one. Guns like Mags, Cockers and most "high-end" guns would die a horrible death if a siphon was attached by accident.
2- At the chrono, you need to rapid firing BEFORE shooting over the chrono.
3- It might be hard keeping FPS up above 90 degrees
4- Large CO2 cloud when humid.

In the end, if you can afford HPA, then HPA works just fine. But I like the simplicity of unregulated CO2, and the only way to compete with HPA is to run a siphon.

FOR MORE INFO:
Link to SIPHON INFO page I wrote:
Link to SIPHON INFO page Doc Nickel wrote:

I might just buy a siphon tube and hook it up to a 20 oz for my tippy.

**HP_lovecraft** · March 3rd, 07:08 PM

Just make sure it is professionally installed.

Another option is to look for a used siphon tank. They were popular in the early 90s, so any 12-20oz you will find will likely be out of hydro.

However, most Tippmanns were shipped with 7oz siphons, and they never run out of hydro.

They sometimes sell on Ebay, or at local fields for $5-10. Older fields are likely to have them if they had Tippmanns for rentals in the early 90s. They all used siphons.

Nick

**tippmannbeast** · March 3rd, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HP_lovecraft

I'll take anything... clean... dirty... doesnt matter.
Nick

Nick will take it wherever he can get it

this information is totoally new to me... but here's a pointless piece of information:

When mimimags first came out, they were very popular among the top teams in the sport. Because of their extremely liquid-sensitive valve, a vertically mounted 20 oz was the most popular setup.

by todays standards: t3h 5Ux0rz (balence wise)

***onesikpup*** · March 3rd, 08:15 PM

this thread needs to be a sticky.....BZ, where are you?

**telequao** · March 4th, 12:25 AM

have you guys actually tried this? I thought it wasn recommended w/ any markers, because the liquid would eventually ruin orings?

seems like the liquid blast from the end of your muzzle would give you away time and time again