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**Pezzer** · February 27th, 04:28 PM

Ok gang, It's been almost a year since I posted or asked questions about paintball and markers. After a long distance move that sent me back to the west (Reno) and I am now about to make my markers purchaces for myself and my oldest son.

Here are my questions for the group:

1) Are autocockers worth it? I know this is subjective and this IS a cocker fourm but my issue is cost. Already I have gone from looking at $100 Spiders to $250 PMI's and now WGP has their "Trilogy" line out (sub $250 WGP entry level cockers). At this point I'm strongly concidering getting a Trilogy for my Kid and a 04' Pro Stock (at least) or VF-Tactical (at best) for myself. I would like for us to be able to share barrels and have the same action, bolts etc. Looks like the budget will cover it but I want to be able to look my wife in the eye and say that it was worth the expence for the quality.

2) What about the Autococker "off-brands"? Meaning the likes of Dragun, ANS, System-X and others that make autococker copies that are sometimes cheaper. Are they as good and shoot as well as WGP's?

3) Do they indeed shoot strighter than most other designs at compairable prices? (Opern or closed bolt, not that there are many other closed bolt non-cocker designs out there. Evil Omen and a few others)

4) Are they hard to maintain and keep properly timed and performing?

I am a old school 80's 12 gram pistol player with a bad knee wanting to get back in to paintball after over 17 years absence. My oldest wants to start praticing for next year when he is 10 and can play at fields. So here I am, started with basic Spyers and now I am concidering a WGP Autococker for both of us.

We plan to be more outdoor scenario-rec players than speedball players but you never know with the young one. I doubt I could do much more than be a standby back player at best. There are a couple of good outdoor fields near by and plenty of public desert to pratice here.

Can anyone please offer some help or advice?

Thank you.

Pezzer (soon to be Autococker owner)

**worr5152** · February 27th, 04:34 PM

yes autococker are very worth it. they are very accurate and they are very upgradable but do not get a trilogy i have i know they are heavy

**bobide** · February 27th, 04:37 PM

...almost every cocker is heavy.

Yes, cockers are very accuracte. It has to do w/ the bolt and how it all moves, etc. Basically it gaurenttes a close to perfect contact w/ the ball. So no spin from the bolt making contact.

Most of the "off-brands" are very good. Any cocker once properly timed, will stay in time for quite a bit, and if u know what your doing and how the gun opperates, u can re-time it easily.

**Cocker16** · February 27th, 04:39 PM

First off how high can u go including tank and everything.

if u can get a fast hopper Egg, and an HPA tank then a cocker and up would be good.

cockers have a tendancy of breakin from time to time, if that doesnt bother u then go ahead. they have very little kick compared to guns at or below thier rpice,

now that i took the time to read your whole post, id go with AGD Auto-Mags. More of a gun for the woods and can still deliver and u can get a reactive trigger whcih keeps it mech and shoot like an electro. Talk to Medic or Alpha if he is still here.

**dirtrider** · February 27th, 05:35 PM

If your mech inclined than a cocker would be great for you. Try to find a used nice mech for around $250.

**jaggy13** · February 28th, 11:17 AM

Pezzer, I have some questions for you that you may not have considered.

As you stated that you are limited in mobility and a "back player" is what you would most likely play, have you considered that you may want an electonic trigger frame to increase rate of fire? If the answer is yes, you would like an elecronic trigger frame at some point, then a cocker may not be the most cost effective solution.

Most autocockers are created equal. (dragun's dragun fly being spyder threads) most others are interchangeable. What that means to you, is that most will use the exact same parts. Some have a bad reputation out of the box (Psyco balistics) but I am true believer that most are for the nearly the same.

The autococker trillogy is an entry level marker that can only be upgraded in certain ways. This is a great way to get into a closed bolt marker with out much expense. just be aware that it can not be upgraded with a better 3 way that will help reduce the trigger pull. The WGP Tacticle is cosmetic upgrades with rails and mounting points. that is it. No performance gains just "simulation" oriented. (waiste of money on a budget in my opinion)

As for maintenace, if you are mechanicly inclined then an autococker is not that diffacult to maintain. after a short while you will find yourself "timing" it for preference as opposed to for maintenance. (trigger pull length, fireing point and so on.)

If rec ball is what you want the trillogy may be a good way to save some money and get great perfomance out to the box. If you are wanting to play speedball or try out some different upgrades for the markers, then you may want to step up into a VF series.

If speedball is a more than likely posibillity, then I would recomend an electro pneumatic gun to start off. Cocker and EP's will give you much more performance than your standard blow back for not much more $$ out of your pocket. An autococker will cost alot to get up into the speed range of an EP.

Used is always another option. but buying a used autococker can be a very scarry process. Some sell because they are ready to try something else. Others sell because they have broken something and don't know how to fix it.

I know I have thrown alot of info at you, so I will stop now and let you drive the conversation by asking some more specific questions.

I will leave you with this. I love autocockers, they are my favorite gun to shoot, workon, and just look at. I shoot an impulse. No moving external parts. Faster rate of fire for less $$ out of pocket. and no back block slapping my mask. I can play tighter in my bunker and live longer. I am not saying you should buy an impulse or angel or ION, I am saying that you are on the right track by doing you reasearch. I am just trying to open more doors for you to explore.

**sumsimpleracer** · February 28th, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pezzer

Ok gang, It's been almost a year since I posted or asked questions about paintball and markers. After a long distance move that sent me back to the west (Reno) and I am now about to make my markers purchaces for myself and my oldest son.

Here are my questions for the group:

1) Are autocockers worth it? I know this is subjective and this IS a cocker fourm but my issue is cost. Already I have gone from looking at $100 Spiders to $250 PMI's and now WGP has their "Trilogy" line out (sub $250 WGP entry level cockers). At this point I'm strongly concidering getting a Trilogy for my Kid and a 04' Pro Stock (at least) or VF-Tactical (at best) for myself. I would like for us to be able to share barrels and have the same action, bolts etc. Looks like the budget will cover it but I want to be able to look my wife in the eye and say that it was worth the expence for the quality.

The trilogy line is sufficient but lots of us cocker owners here question its ability, mainly on how well it upgrades. We already know that this marker was classified as a new players gun so you shouldn't expect to put hundreds or thousands of dollars in this. A better solution to this would be to look for USED autocockers, because autococker resale is low, you won't be surprised to find an already upgraded autococker used for about the same price as a new stock autococker. The reason to the trilogy is because of it's Pneumatics. Usually autocockers have pneumatics on the outside, so all upgrades for it, are for external pneumatics.

2) What about the Autococker "off-brands"? Meaning the likes of Dragun, ANS, System-X and others that make autococker copies that are sometimes cheaper. Are they as good and shoot as well as WGP's?
All cockers are equally the same (except for barrel types and internal/external pneumatics) the only difference would be the creators added touch like hybrid makes a front plate, so the LPR is directly inline with the body, i also believe system X does so as well....

3) Do they indeed shoot strighter than most other designs at compairable prices? (Opern or closed bolt, not that there are many other closed bolt non-cocker designs out there. Evil Omen and a few others)
Accuracy is judged by ball to barrel match, as long as you get that straight your shot WILL be straight. But shot to shot consistency is different. Making more than one shot land in the same spot is reflected by recoil. As closed bolt markers, shot to shot consistency will be better.

4) Are they hard to maintain and keep properly timed and performing?
Cockers aren't VERY hard to time, infact heres a few sites that would help you out with plenty of your cocker tech.

www.cockertech.com
www.cockerownersgroup.com
www.ottersccustoms.com

and of course, us

I am a old school 80's 12 gram pistol player with a bad knee wanting to get back in to paintball after over 17 years absence. My oldest wants to start praticing for next year when he is 10 and can play at fields. So here I am, started with basic Spyers and now I am concidering a WGP Autococker for both of us.

We plan to be more outdoor scenario-rec players than speedball players but you never know with the young one. I doubt I could do much more than be a standby back player at best. There are a couple of good outdoor fields near by and plenty of public desert to pratice here.

Can anyone please offer some help or advice?

Thank you.

Pezzer (soon to be Autococker owner)

There you go, and welcome to the family

**Oscarine** · February 28th, 04:25 PM

Some things to add on about Fockers is that some use different valve tube sizes which can prove problemetic when upgrading valve (if you ever do) or getting things like the new MQ-Valve when it comes out. Examples of Markers like this would be the Dragun 03m and the AKA Merlin.

**sumsimpleracer** · March 1st, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oscarine

Some things to add on about Fockers is that some use different valve tube sizes which can prove problemetic when upgrading valve (if you ever do) or getting things like the new MQ-Valve when it comes out. Examples of Markers like this would be the Dragun 03m and the AKA Merlin.

I agree with every thing you say....except....stop calling cockers not made by WGP fockers....just stop.....so are you trying to say that Everything that resembles a cocker and not made by WGP or doesn't have a WGP body is a focker....well are you trying to say that the AKA merlin or my Hybrid Rival is not much of a cocker against a trilogy line of markers!? yes their made by WGP but lack the external pneumatics....Are those Fockers!? can trilogy cockers be fockers!? If WGP makes trilogy cockers then they can't be considered fockers...can they!?!?!? Oscarine....please just stop all of this COCKERS VS FOCKERS

**Oscarine** · March 1st, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sumsimpleracer

I agree with every thing you say....except....stop calling cockers not made by WGP fockers....just stop.....so are you trying to say that Everything that resembles a cocker and not made by WGP or doesn't have a WGP body is a focker....well are you trying to say that the AKA merlin or my Hybrid Rival is not much of a cocker against a trilogy line of markers!? yes their made by WGP but lack the external pneumatics....Are those Fockers!? can trilogy cockers be fockers!? If WGP makes trilogy cockers then they can't be considered fockers...can they!?!?!? Oscarine....please just stop all of this COCKERS VS FOCKERS

When have I ever made a vs thread on them? :P

My friend owns a Drallion, if you look back on my old posts you can see I say nothing but positive stuff about it ^_^

Focker to me is just a convinient way to say non-WGP cocker....it doesn't imply lack of quality.

**jaggy13** · March 2nd, 01:00 AM

there was a lawsuit or pending action about the trademarded name "autococker" or "cocker" so anything that does not start as a WGP body can not be called a "cocker" or "autococker" so the term "focker" was coined and designated to all private lables that mill their own body from scratch.
the term "cocker" and "Autococker" are trademarked. that is all. relax. take the blue pill.

**Pezzer** · March 2nd, 03:37 AM

Hummm, good info folks.

I did look into the AGD Automag (Tac-One, very nice) but no one local aound here shoots or knows much about working on them. That worries me a bit.

Autocockers in general are popular with the folks around here that like them (of course) but my questions are a attempt to get some more views about what I am about to get into here from others that have played with them.

"jaggy13" thanks for the long reply. I wanted to bring up my bad knee just as a FYI. I have no idea if I will ever play speedball much but concidering that the two closest fields are a indoor speedball only place. The other has a few diffrent fields but everyone I saw playing was in the speedball field. There is a great outdoor field w/ a old west town and all kinds of great stuff but its more like a hour away. With all of the local focus on speedball I'm guessing I will try playing back/cover at some point. (if the knee allows)

One more thing: check out the stock parts list for the VF-Tact. It looks like to me it has sevral upgraded parts for better performace compaired to the Pro-stock (my backup purchase plan BTW). A better Delron bolt, Orr-acle Valve Spring, Outkast Adjustable Front Regulator and a ergonomic inline Regulator with Low Pressure End Cap. All of that plus the cool tactical mounting stuff does appel to me of course. BTW I just found out WGP is now shipping all VF-T's with a black bottomline and ASA plus the best kicker of all: A matching Kaner Tactical barrel! Very cool and much nicer looking and better shooting than the older "Black Magic" barrel the VF-T used to ship with.

"sumsimpleracer" also thanks for the long one. I realize the trilogy's are not as upgradable (for now, rumors abound of hacks on the way) but that is why I am thinking about one of those for my oldest's first marker. Now he is the type that would get into speedball when he can and If I could afford a entry level turney electro then I would get him a Ion or a BKO or somthing fast and open bolt like that. Who knows what I will do about him. He can't play at fields until next year (too young) but I figure we will pratice safty and rec-ball in the desert for the time being. He may want to go with a cheaper Spyder or somthing if he desides do get a bike for his birthday too.

One thing I will get for both of us is HPA if I can sneek 2 bottles into the budget. We are in the high desert so it gets cold at night even in the summer. Plus I am concerned about my kid shooting too fast and freezing up the marker. So I will get basic 48/3000 HPA tanks for us even if I get him a Spyder instead of a Trilogy Comp. (or Sport). And yes, we will be upgrading barrels to at least a All Amarican or maybe a Freak setup for Christmas (worries about field paint matching).

Dose anyone know if those HammerHead "BattleStikks" barrels are as good as they say?

Thanks again for all of the help and I will keep watching this thread and post any more questions or concerns.

:-)

Pezzer

**jaggy13** · March 2nd, 10:24 AM

sounds like you have your heart set on the VF tactical. I am sure you will be very happy with it.
My only comnet about the air tanks you have selected is the size. make sure you are playing at a field or place with all day air. you will not get many shots per tank.
(we play mostly outlaw so what we take is all we get)

**sumsimpleracer** · March 2nd, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oscarine

When have I ever made a vs thread on them? :P

My friend owns a Drallion, if you look back on my old posts you can see I say nothing but positive stuff about it ^_^

Focker to me is just a convinient way to say non-WGP cocker....it doesn't imply lack of quality.

heh sorry oscarine...didn't mean to go off on ya, its just i get tired of people calling other guns focker...it just doesnt sound good...

**ezmonet** · March 2nd, 06:38 PM

I would tell you to take a look at the CCM line of fockers. These machines rock right out of the box and need no upgrades other than the bottom line. For the $390 that they are asking for, you are getting a lot of value for your money.

I have taken mine out about 6 times now and it has never needed any kind of tinkering other than the cleaning I give it between games. Its light, fast and very reliable. Take a look at ccmowner.com and chipleymachine.com. The pictures on chipleymachine.com don't give it justice...

Good luck and whatever you deceide I am sure that you will be happy with it.

Ez

OnTheMatBaller · March 2nd, 07:17 PM

I would NOT go for the Tactical. IMO its a waste of money.

**Pezzer** · March 4th, 03:54 AM

I know, I know gang...

Despertly I am trying to talk myself out of the VF-T because of the price. If I go with a Pro-stock I can get fully equiped w/ EVERYTHING I would need for the sport and a better HPA tank and maybe that All-American or barrel kit too. Just wish it wasn't so freaking cool looking, and it would be nice to have a mounted light for night games. (pussy! lol)

GREAT POINT jaggy!!! I didn't even think about the fact me and my kid are going to be playing in the public land (desert outside of town, "outlaw" style) with no re-fills in site. Although the funny thing about this site I found is that there IS a paintball field less than 5 miles back down the road. So we could go get re-fills on the days he is open and his shop is only 2 more miles further if it is after 6pm (shop open till 8pm and I got owners cell # if i need to).

Maybe I will just get over it and look for a nice used mach-cocker or just get a new Pro-Stock (aka: 04' VF) and spend the rest on better barrel, tank and paintballs. Yeah I noticed good paint is pricey. For practice I know 40-50 per case paint or cheaper is fine but for a big scenario game or improtant turney the $70+ stuff is susposed to rock.

That brings me to upgrades for the Pro-stock: whats the best bolt to upgrade to? (ShockTech i herd was one)

Other early upgrades to concider? (cheaper ones, not Eblades etc)

Wow, I have 'almost' talked myself back in to a Pro-stock w/ better barrel instead of the VF-T. Either way folks I have about 2 weeks or less to deside. Tax returns will be in by then and that will be the purchase week.

Thanks again for all of the help guys. Please reply with any more sugestions.

:-) -Pezzer