Thread Tools

**paintthecatBLUE** · June 20th, 08:32 PM

has anyone ever thought about this? ive been thinking about the possibility for several weeks, and i finally got my cocker a few days ago. as soon as i can get to the proshop to pick up some extra pneumatic hose, im gonna try this.

first off, to make it work, you will need to re-route your front hoses. just switch the first one with the third one. this will constantly keep the bolt in the "open" position when the trigger is not being pressed. when you pull the trigger, the bolt will close.

you will also need to time it backwards, so that the gun actuates before it fires. that way the bolt will still be closed by the time the valve opens. there should be no more blowback (if any at all) than normal, and i bet you could still acheive suction timing.

i have thought about it alot, and there is really no way for there to be blowback. since it actuates first, you can time it so that the bolt has enough time to get fully closed before the hammer is released. the bolt will also remain closed untill you release the trigger.

so, what do you guys think? i know, one of the unique things about a cocker is that it has a closed bolt system. but hell, why not try something unique? all cockers are closed bolt, i think it would be really original to have one that isn't. i bet this would definitely be a head turner at the field...

**tlmiller** · June 20th, 08:44 PM

because of the tendency of cockers to have very poor detents, allowing the bolt to remain open whenever you weren't firing would be a recipe for double and triple feeds. Not to mention, that, the whole point of a cocker is that it's an automated pump gun, and if you wanted an open bolt gun, you'd be much better off in every way, shape, and form going with any of the inexpensive ep's that are on the market. While it's possible, and it might turn heads, most of the heads will turn because they will think you are an absolute, utter noob that has no clue how to time it properly. Turning a cocker open bolt defeats all it's strengths, yet leaves all it's weaknesses.

***DarkTamer*** · June 20th, 08:46 PM

There is no point to that whatsoever. I thought up the idea about a year ago, and never went through with it, cuz that would defeat the ENTIRE purpose of an autococker.

If you want to do it just to f* around, then switch it back, that's cool, but it would be REALLY stupid to keep it that way....

**paintthecatBLUE** · June 20th, 09:02 PM

i know, i know, i knew i was probablly going to get alot of flak by posting this. and cockers are known for being closed bolt systems.

BUT

take into account the fact that a closed bolt has almost no effect on anything. accuracy, air effeciency, none of that really matters. cockers are closed bolt systems because, well... just because. it has no real strengths or weaknesses. of course i may be wrong about this, but i havent seen a huge difference.

and about the detents, i think the solution would be an adjustable detent. but if you have a tight paint to barrel match, you wouldnt have any more double feeds than you would if it was still operating in closed bolt.

yeah, its weird. its just an idea. there are probablly some cons to doing this. but try and think of the positive things, if there are any, maybe we will come up with something really good... and hey, a bad idea is still an idea. you know those post-it note things? real useful arent they? but the guy that came up with the idea was laughed at alot, and people were like "haha noob that will never work, its stupid and there is no point" and look where we are today. alot of other things probablly started out like this. computers, cell phones, mechanical pencils, i dont know... but its something to think about

**Huchacool3** · June 20th, 09:41 PM

i've thought about this before

try it and make a vid, might be kinda cool

**paintthecatBLUE** · June 20th, 09:46 PM

i have everything i need to do it except the pneumatic lines, i dont have one long enough to reach from the first 3-way barb to the farthest ram barb on the end.

oh, and i thought i might throw in, my cocker right now can shoot from the slack in the safety when it is on. it doesnt recock, but when the safety is on there is enough slack to release the hammer. it feels like there is almost enough to recock too, i'll see what i can do. why? poor man's trigger stop. i wont have a safety then, but thats what barrel socks are for

**Cocker16** · June 20th, 10:04 PM

dumb idea im sorry.

ud have to change the whole back block idea.

***DarkTamer*** · June 20th, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paintthecatBLUE

take into account the fact that a closed bolt has almost no effect on anything. accuracy, air effeciency, none of that really matters. cockers are closed bolt systems because, well... just because. it has no real strengths or weaknesses. of course i may be wrong about this, but i havent seen a huge difference.

You are wrong. Cockers are generally more accurate and have a flatter trajectory due to the closed bolt. I DIDN'T SAY THE SHOOT FARTHER!!

**paintthecatBLUE** · June 20th, 10:44 PM

thats if you are firing single shots. but if you are firing at a decent rate (10 bps or higher) it all basically becomes an open bolt gun because there is not enough time for the bolt to completely stop moving, the ball will still have momentum when the valve opens to propel it out. and also, the gun recocks before the ball leaves the barrel, so it cant really have any increase in accuracy, since all the recoil comes from the recocking process.

***DarkTamer*** · June 20th, 11:07 PM

I used to think the same thing until I talked to a real engineer who lives and breathes autocockers. I don't remember the details... but you're wrong

What you're saying is that once you start shooting fast, the autococker magically becomes open bolt, which is not the case. At any speed it shoots closed bolt, and the only thing can happen at higher speeds is drop off, which happens in all guns.

**sumsimpleracer** · June 20th, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paintthecatBLUE

take into account the fact that a closed bolt has almost no effect on anything. accuracy, air effeciency, none of that really matters. cockers are closed bolt systems because, well... just because. it has no real strengths or weaknesses. of course i may be wrong about this, but i havent seen a huge difference.

well if theirs no effect why even change from closed bolt to open bolt? wouldn't that mean wasting MORE money on converting from closed to open for no reason and effect on performance. Shouldn't you be using that money to buy performance upgrades that way instead of wasted money you get money towards a cause?

**paintthecatBLUE** · June 21st, 10:48 AM

drktamer- no, i didnt mean it just magically become open bolt. but having a closed bolt, wgp claims it is more accurate because the bolt is not moving when the ball is fired. the whole point of a closed bolt system is to have the ball sitting still. but if you are firing 15+ bps, the ball is not going to be sitting still when it is fired. see what im saying? theres not enough time for it to stop moving, which is technically what an open bolt gun does. the bolt moves forward, then air is released when it reaches the end of its cycle.

sumsimpleracer- i was kinda thinking the same thing. but this is just a "why not?" spur of the moment idea. but it isnt going to cost more than $3, and is easily reversible. dont worry about me wasting large sums of money on something pointless instead of functional upgrades... it will cost next to nothing.

**jaggy13** · June 21st, 11:16 AM

I understand what you are saying cat, but you are not taking into acount a correctly sized barrel. with the correct bore match the ball will be stopped long enough for it's enertia to equalize. also the bolt is not moving wile firing wich means a more consistent reaction in the breach. (consistency is the name of the game) No matter how you argue it, moving parts will never be as consistent as stationary parts.

I understand what you are saying, and it may even be fun to experiment with. I see no possible gain other than minimizing barrel roll out.

Here are some questions that may help you see my point.
How does a blow back marker work?
What is different about a stacked tube blow back and an autococker and how they operate?

The main thing that I would note is that we are putting the bolt on its own pneumatics and removing the blow back to recock the marker. This lets the valve fire all of its air into the breech. What does this do to help? It allows us to run a lower operating pressure because less gas is used for other things.

Next is the signature closed bolt, How much does it really help? I wish I could tell you.
To be perfectly honest, I have no way to measure it. I use a freak barrel on my cocker, impulse and ion. and all 3 are deadly accurate. The flatter trajectory is something though. I will have to chrono all 3 guns and test for that.

By making the cocker open bolt, you are still reaping the rewards of an independant bolt, but I think you may be giving up some potential consistency. Give it a try and report back to us.

**sumsimpleracer** · June 21st, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paintthecatBLUE

sumsimpleracer- i was kinda thinking the same thing. but this is just a "why not?" spur of the moment idea. but it isnt going to cost more than $3, and is easily reversible. dont worry about me wasting large sums of money on something pointless instead of functional upgrades... it will cost next to nothing.

now you've got me interested. wait so can you give me a cliff notes version on how your going to transform your cocker from closed bolt to open bolt with such a low amount of cash?

**paintthecatBLUE** · June 21st, 02:03 PM

ok, as short as possible:

reverse the ram hoses and reverse time it so it actuates before firing.

no special parts needed, thats why i came up with this idea. you just reverse everything, and it will work as an open bolt marker. i will try it out this weekend over the chrono to see if it makes a difference. and the $3 is for new pneumatic hosing, i need a longer hose to get from the first 3 way hose to the front ram barb (thats what i meant by reversing the hoses). basically setting it up as if it were a slider trigger instead of a hinge.

**paintthecatBLUE** · June 21st, 07:03 PM

well, somehow, i dont know how, i was able to reverse the stock ram hoses. i actually had to substitute the lpr to 3 way hose for one of the ram hose, because it is longer for some reason than the shorter ram hoses. i dont have any air, but i know where the 3 way actuation is (around the 1st 6th of the pull) so i set the hammer lug all the way down, which is about 1/3 through the pull. now all i need is some air and paint and it should be ready to go.

**Frontman#1** · June 21st, 08:18 PM

Sry to flame, but that is a very stupid idea, then you are basically making your autococker fire like a tippmann, and you lose all of there value at being a closed bolt marker, even though, the bolt would be closed when it fires it would still be a very dumb idea.

**paintthecatBLUE** · June 21st, 08:23 PM

what do you mean "fire like a tippmann"? just because it is open bolt? shockers, angels, matrixes, timmies, and lots of other high end guns are open bolt. open bolt does not determine a low or high end gun, its just a firing process.

**tlmiller** · June 21st, 08:28 PM

Yes, but most of those other guns are true ep's, the cocker, unless it's e-trigger w/ mq valve, is still a seer-tripper. Therefore being closer to a tippman than those guns you listed.