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***Riddler236*** · October 13th, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OutThaBushes

I'm sorry but that's ignorant......your going to steer a new person to a ****ter marker just because your pissed(and have no right to be) about something that happened long ago.

I already said that the Sp-1 is cheaper and will outperform the A-5. Don't listen to what some people are saying.....you should look at a marker for the quality and price, not who makes it.

You've gotta be kidding me. Smart Parts is the blackest type of cancer befouling our sport. No true advocate of paintball could ever condone supporting them in any way, shape or form. The Gardner brothers are lying, cheating, stealing bastards who want nothing more than to backstab the competition and swindle paintball players. They don't care about the sport; they don't care about the players; the all-mighty dollar is their only goal.

Even if you can get past the treachery that led to the bankruptcy of Pneu-Ventures and the fall of ICD and AKA, look at what SP is trying to do to the market currently. Marker sales are down - no surprise in today's economy - and the Gardner brothers are always looking for their next quick buck. They just needed to find a way to sell more guns. Innovation? Nah. Raise quality? Lol. Oh hey, how about threatening the very foundation of our sport by launching a massive shill- and hype-filled ad campaign for .50 cal? That's a sure-fire way to sell more markers, at least until players realize just how inferior it is. But SP doesn't care. Tricking just 10% of the playing public to invest in a new marker would be a wild success for them; they'd reap years' worth of sales in a short time period, and I guarantee they'll already be launching their next ill-founded scheme before the dust even settles from the failure of this one.

Who loses? The player. Who's getting richer and laughing all the way to the bank? SP.

Vote with your wallets, guys. Support companies that support our sport.

**Trbo323** · October 13th, 12:32 PM

let me get this right, your going to try and attack sp for trying to sell .5 cal paintballs but not kingman for doing the SAME EXACT THING with .43 cal paintballs?

smaller paint has been around for a while, its not going to go anywhere, its like trying to get the US to switch over and use the metric system, it would just cost too much at this point

but if your going to attack SP for trying to sell something that isnt usefull to the customer then how about looking at all the aftermarket crap Tippmann sells? ya all that stuff for the a-5 that just makes it heavier but does nothing?

i am by no means cheering SP on, most the stuff they make is crap but recently the unbalanced spool vibe at its price is a great marker for a cheap price, while comparing marker to marker in the sub 300 catigory the only other one that really stands out is the rebadged vs1 that is selling for $60 right now. finally a STBB that outperforms its pricetag. so are you now going to attack kingman for selling out and allowing the vs1 to be re-branded?

welcome to the world, not everyone is honest. but i see no point in turning someone to an inferior marker and making them spend more money, lets not forget, Tippmann does its fair share of lying to the customer, the 2 aftermarket barrels they sell are claimed to get further distance or better accuracy through rifeling. both of which are false, they are lying and using a new players ignorance against them. very few aftermarket things tippmann produces actually do much than just weigh the marker down but of course they claim better performance.

when was the last time SP tried to sue anyone anyway? anyone know?

***Riddler236*** · October 13th, 01:00 PM

Oddball calibers have been around as the extreme minority since the beginning. Kingman's little pistols aren't what's being over-hyped and confusing a large share of the player base. Yes, SP's .50 cal movement will fail, but how many players will they swindle first?

Bathe in ignorance and underestimate the ruthlessness of today's paintball manufacturers at your own peril. especially when SP is concerned. Make no mistake - they're the blackest-hearted of them all.

Have some care where your dollar is going.

**Trbo323** · October 13th, 02:18 PM

well how about making a rational argument for attacking sp over the small rounds? you are attacking only them when they are not by a long shot the only company who has dipped their toes in the small caliber market, as to how many players will SP swindle before the .5 fails? not nearly as many as Tippmann has already swindeled with the flatline, straightline (or whatever they called that poor excuse for a barrel) X7 and the whole clamshell design.
yes SP is a horrid company (or was at least, not sure that they are sueing people anymore) but at least they have not stuck with the same design for 2 decades and just put extra plastic on the outside, tippmanns greatist inovation in the last decade has to be the cyclone and it doesnt even work all that well

if i were in the market for a mid level marker and didnt want to buy a HPA tank i would absolutly go pick up a vibe, but that doesnt mean i will get a shocker after it, just because you buy 1 sp marker doesnt mean they have a hold on you for life, something Tippmann tries very hard to do with the never ending useless "upgrades"

***Riddler236*** · October 13th, 04:58 PM

personally, I think there are miles of difference between a company offering cosmetic aftermarket parts to a growing milsim following and one that so selfishly wreaks havoc in our industry with no regard for the players and less than that for their competition, who they out-lawyer with bogus patents and lawsuits, but I have no interest in bickering.

Let me just reiterate that in today's tough economic times, it's imperative that players support the companies (and local fields and shops) that care about us. Not all of them will be making it out of this recession, and we have the onus to support the ones that matter most to us.

tlmiller · October 13th, 05:50 PM

And the companies have the onus not to overcharge. So IMO, SP is supporting players offering an affordable, good performance marker more than Tippmann with their marker that is inferior to the $60 rebadged spyder but costs almost 3x that price. I'd rather have a company that's at least has the decency to be dishonest and conniving to my face (Smart Parts) than one that is selling me garbage at 3 times it's value. If Tippmann readjusted it's pricing, dropping the 98 to about $40, the A-5 to about $60, and the X-7 to just under $100, I'd have no issues with them. As is, I consider them at the VERY least as bad as Smart Parts. Possibly worse, while Smart Parts thinned the heard on markers made in a morally contemptible way, Tippmann is dipping right into the players pockets and screwing over the players directly in a morally contemptible way.

TippmannFireman · October 13th, 05:57 PM

I can't believe I'm about to publicly ask this stupid question... But what's the deal with SP? What happened with them?

tlmiller · October 13th, 06:07 PM

Back when electronic markers were new-ish, Smart Parts bought out a company that had a patent for a part for a type of electronic triggers on a paintball marker. They then decided that they owned the patent for ALL electronic triggers on paintball markers, and sued/threatened to sue any company that made a marker with an electronic trigger unless said company paid them patent royalties. This went on with them basically bankrupting the one company, and ICD and AKA decided they'd rather simply leave the paintball world than bother with it.
Eventually, WDP (now called APS (Angel Paintball Sports)) revealed to Smart Parts when SP came after them that they ALSO had bought rights to this patent, and so SP could not sue them. This was the last SP made rants about suing companies, because they knew if they pursued it, they would lose.

The only thing I don't understand is why APS didn't just share the patent rights (as would be their legal option) with every other company for the betterment of paintball in general. But to this day, Smart Parts is the only paintball manufacturer to have attacked another paintball company. And as a company, I will never stop hating them. However, I try not to hate their products IF their product doesn't deserve it.

**the_real_kaz** · October 13th, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riddler236

You've gotta be kidding me. Smart Parts is the blackest type of cancer befouling our sport. No true advocate of paintball could ever condone supporting them in any way, shape or form. The Gardner brothers are lying, cheating, stealing bastards who want nothing more than to backstab the competition and swindle paintball players. They don't care about the sport; they don't care about the players; the all-mighty dollar is their only goal.

Even if you can get past the treachery that led to the bankruptcy of Pneu-Ventures and the fall of ICD and AKA, look at what SP is trying to do to the market currently. Marker sales are down - no surprise in today's economy - and the Gardner brothers are always looking for their next quick buck. They just needed to find a way to sell more guns. Innovation? Nah. Raise quality? Lol. Oh hey, how about threatening the very foundation of our sport by launching a massive shill- and hype-filled ad campaign for .50 cal? That's a sure-fire way to sell more markers, at least until players realize just how inferior it is. But SP doesn't care. Tricking just 10% of the playing public to invest in a new marker would be a wild success for them; they'd reap years' worth of sales in a short time period, and I guarantee they'll already be launching their next ill-founded scheme before the dust even settles from the failure of this one.

Who loses? The player. Who's getting richer and laughing all the way to the bank? SP.

Vote with your wallets, guys. Support companies that support our sport.

CAN I GET AN A-MEN!!!! Riddler for President!!!

Miller Tippmanns are not that bad. at all. Are they over priced? Yes, a little bit, but are they cheating and lieing? No. They are not. Tippmann has always been a good company.

***Riddler236*** · October 13th, 07:42 PM

What's with all the hate for tippmann, anyways? I don't get it. Are you guys that surprised that build quality may have suffered since the family sold the company? Or are you upset that tippmann's good reputation continues despite it? Or do you just hate non-electros and think paintball is a ROF competition?

I may not have owned a tippy in many, many moons, but I haven't seen anything that would preclude me from still heartily recommending one to a new player. There will always be a place for entry level markers, and there damn well better always be a place for pumps and mechs.

***Db0ne*** · October 13th, 08:05 PM

its just the fact that they are over priced for what it is that bugs me. It's also harder than most spyders to take apart, not that its not easy.

tlmiller · October 13th, 08:15 PM

I owned a Tippmann, that's why I hate them. Worst marker I have ever owned. In 15 years of playing, I have never owned a marker I was less underwhelmed with.

**TheAznInvazn** · October 13th, 08:31 PM

I'm personally saying that Tippmann's just aren't what they used to be
I would rock an old 98c, but now if I spend $150 on a 98c, chances are that either, the sear will wear down within a few months, the powertube will crack, or both.

That leads me to say that Tippmann's are not worth $150 at all
Why spend that much money for something that's going to break?

And the reason why Tippmann's reputation is still around?
It's because all their old markers are still hitting the fields!

If Tippmann's quality didn't drop, and if they weren't so expensive for a simple blowback design, I'd be all for Tippmanns

Baraka444 · October 13th, 08:37 PM

I actually own an SP-1 and I can personally say It's better than the A-5, I haven't owned an A-5 but I rented one before. The thing about the A-5 Is that you never have to do anything to It to make It work and It almost doesn't ever need maintenance, but the thing Is that It Isn't that great. It has nothing really going for It other than being heavy duty and very simple.

But If I could suggest a marker you could get the Vibe Blackheart for about 220$ and that would beat either of them because It's diverse, Speedball or Woodsball. It would have a low force bolt and eyes so chopping Is almost completely Impossible, matched with the Invert Too loader or the Viewloader Eye Force and an HPA tank It would be a great marker for a long time.

Although you could always go with something like the Spyder VS1 or Sonix, I've never personally used one but I hear there cheap and effective. Does anybody know anything about Azodin? Even though there Spyder clones there supposed to fantastic for the money.

And about Tippmann never lying is sort of ridiculous, there the ones making rifled and sniper barrels but I can't say that a lot of other companies haven't tried that.

**the_real_kaz** · October 13th, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riddler236

I may not have owned a tippy in many, many moons, but I haven't seen anything that would preclude me from still heartily recommending one to a new player. There will always be a place for entry level markers, and there damn well better always be a place for pumps and mechs.

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN!!!! I love this guy.

Also miller need i remind you of your G3, or have you blocked that experience from your mind completly now?

Going off of what Azn said, The feild that I work at still uses OLD tippmanns. Like 2003 98s. We had a small batch of new ones in 06 or 07 shortly after the switch over, and those markers are now parts markers for the Old ones. There is no way you can knock the old tippy relability.

**TheAznInvazn** · October 13th, 11:48 PM

Indeed I cannot, the old tippy's simply work
Too bad their new stuff is garbage, and that's mostly wha new players buy, since they either don't know to buy used and save money, or buy new stuff just because they're starting out

If Tippmann honestly brouht back their close to indestructable guns, and lowered their prices down so that a 98c could be had for under $100 new, then they wuld definately be in the best beginner markers

If I ever get another Tippmann, it'll probably be an old SL-68 II or something old like that

***Riddler236*** · October 14th, 12:06 AM

Sadly, QC issues and price:value discrepancies happen, especially when corporations are involved and profit is the bottom line. You get that pretty much straight across the board.

In this case, it sounds like the new owners of Tippmann may be taking advantage of the company's good name, which is a shame.

**hurdlebeast** · October 14th, 01:44 AM

Basically, Smart Parts is the Microsoft of the paintball world.

IE, I hate them, but...I'm typing this on Windows Vista Ultimate 64 bit edition, and I'm mid-process of modding my 05 Impulse. Strong-arm tactics aside, they do make some pretty nice guns. I do wish, however, at least ICD was still around. I loved the BKO more than I do my Impy. meh.

Edit: and at OP: I do not suggest the A5. In my experience, it is slower, heavier, louder, uglier, and just plain worse than most other guns in the price range. AKA, there are better values. In my experience, stacked tubes (spyders and clones) are a much better value for the money.

tlmiller · October 14th, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_real_kaz

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN!!!! I love this guy.

Also miller need i remind you of your G3, or have you blocked that experience from your mind completly now?

Point, I probably do hate the G3 more than I did my Tippmann.

**Trbo323** · October 14th, 11:25 AM

at any rate, people need to stop living in the past, Tippmanns have not been super reliable in the last 5 years and SP has not tried to sue anyone for what? over a decade now? If you dont like SP thats fine thats your opinion but you shouldnt be forcing your opinion of a company onto a marker question, manufacturer aside there is no contest, SP1 performs better hands down.

yes SP did some bad things but it was stopped, likewise Tippmann continues to pry on the ignorance of new players with no end in site, you say SP will do anything to make a buck, how about applying that to tippmann as well? they are offering some pretty standard blowbacks at crazy prices with a never ending assortment of "upgrades" that do nothing also for way too much money, i see no difference between what SP used to be and what Tippmann is. if anything support BT since the quality went over there in 04.

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