[WarHamster]

I already posted this over in the Armotech forums, but now I realize the gun review forum might have been a smarter place to post it:


First the cons:

-The gun is finicky. I spent nearly a week (most of that waiting on a new spring though) fixing random things on it before I got it firing properly. Either I had a bad Gun, or Armotech doesn't check these things enough when they leave the factory. See the bottom of this post for a list of problems I encountered and how they were fixed.

-It's fairly heavy. While I was at the field today I was wishing I had a remote system (which I conveniently bought on the way home).

-It can be a pain to clean if paint gets into the wrong parts. i.e. the sight adjustment knobs or into certain areas of the gun.

-The gun shoots entirely too hot. Even turned all the way down, I had to cut three rungs off my firing spring to get it firing under 280fps.

-The gun is too bulky for speedball. There were a few scenarios even in woodsball where it was a bit too bulky for my bunker and firing it was awkward.

-The velocity adjustment screw must be taken out to access the spring, striker, etc. This means you must chrono again EVERY time you open you gun up to clean, oil, or whatever.


Now the Pros:

-It may be that the gun is just new, but my gun was shooting considerably farther then even the high end guns at the field. (I had 3 guys swearing I was shooting hot because of how far my shots were going and when I went to chrono I shot a 256, 262, & 259)

-It's far more consistent then my Pirhana or my friend's Spider. (for those who say that it's just a Spider in costume) While I'm not going to lie and say it's better than an angel or timmy (as I've never really had a chance to use either of those extensively), it was on par with any autococker I've seen.

-It's extremely quiet for a paintball gun. While it's not the most quiet gun I've ever heard, it was pretty damn quiet. I managed to pick a guy off from thick brush at about 20 feet without his friends knowing exactly where I was.

-The gun is easy to work on ONCE you get the hang of it. As I said it can be a finicky gun, but once I got used to it there's nothing that's very hard to fix.

-Obviously the gun looks amazing. I had a good 1/3 the field stop by to look at my gun. Even the people who knew what it was were checking it out. When I asked my friend to hold it while I adjusted my throat mike, 3 or 4 guys behind me who I didn't even know were like "I'll hold it!" Even if everyone didn't actually come over to look at it I think everyone at LEAST stopped and did a double take when they first saw it. Finally, there's nothing like newbies who think a the gun makes a paintball player good (not vice-versa), having their jaws drop and a look of awe come over them when they see it.

-The time I had to call tech support (about the tangled spring I talk about below). They were EXTREMELY kind and helpful. The guy there sent me 2 replacement body pins without even thinking twice cause mine were a bit loose. Likewise when I told him about my spring (again discussed below) he sent me a new spring no problem (I had to pay for a second one, but still).


Now the problems I encountered working on it

-When I got the gun the two pins that held the body halves together were loose.
Armotech sent me replacement body pins free of charge that work beautifully

-The first time I fired the gun, it burped my entire tank dry before I could disconnect the air. When I opened it up it has trashed (tangled) my firing spring and shredded the O-ring on my striker.
Again armotech sent me a replacement spring. However, I had to pay $5, for a second spring, since I asked him to send me 2 springs

-After I got the new spring I realized that the problem lies in the velocity adjustment. If it is in too far, it messes up the spring and causes the gun to burp like it did (i.e. the end of the spring is in farther then the face of the thingy you screw it into). However, when you consider it's shooting nearly 500 fps like that I guess it's to be expected...
No real solution for this, however it's not really a problem if you just understand that with it in all the way you're shooting 500fps+ and that can't be good for the gun

-Since I got the new spring and got the gun firing, air leaks out of the barrel when I have the gun uncocked with air on. As soon as I cock it it stops and it's fine, and obviously it recocks itself so this isn't really a problem.
Armotech tech support said this is a common problem and they've yet to come up with a good solution. They simply suggest cocking the marker before attaching an air supply to avoid the problem

-The parts are very rare, as it seems next to no one carries armotech products. I went to 4 paintball stores looking for a spring and even a hardware store to see if I could have one MADE before I broke down and called armotech.
I had planned to solve this by machining the gun to take Spider springs after my 90 day warranty is up. However, after seeing my gun my field store was quite impressed and plan to start carrying armotechs this fall, so parts shouldn't be a problem for me anymore

-The gun shoots too hot out of the factory. Even with the velocity screw as low as it would go, I couldn't get it firing under 400 fps.
I clipped 3 rungs off of the velocity spring and now it fires at 280 when the screw is about about 3/4 of the way in. Armotech now also offers pre-broken in springs that fire in the legal range right off the bat (figures AFTER I got mine and had to clip the spring)

So yeah, there are the problems I've had with it. As you can see it IS extremely finicky, but I've managed to get past all of it, and now the gun works wonderfully.

Conclusion
Was the gun a pain in the butt when I first got it? Yes. Was it worth it for how cool the gun is once I finally got it working? Definatly yes. It performs beautifully now. Not only does the gun perform with the best of them, but it looks amazing to boot.

While I can't reccomend it as a first-time gun due to the many problems I encountered getting it working in the first place. I would whole-heartedly reccomend it based on my experiences so far, for someone looking for a milsim gun or a good woodsball gun. Just make sure you're not afraid of tinkering around inside your gun a little!

[HuNtS]

Originally Posted by WarHamster

-Since I got the new spring and got the gun firing, air leaks out of the barrel when I have the gun uncocked with air on. As soon as I cock it it stops and it's fine, and obviously it recocks itself so this isn't really a problem.
Armotech tech support said this is a common problem and they've yet to come up with a good solution. They simply suggest cocking the marker before attaching an air supply to avoid the problem

the reason that happens is because sometimes (in the armotech's case most of the time) the cupseal isnt sealed, and when u put the gas on it still doesnt seal, so it'll leak a bit until you cock it, which then causes it to seal, and the leaking to stop... that's why it's a good idea to cock it before you gas it up...

[WarHamster]

Ah, that would explain it. I was told by some other ppl that I need a cup seal as well. However, the problem doesn't bug me enough that I'm going to buy a new cupseal and have it shipped over it.

[HuNtS]

if u cock it and it doesnt leak, the cupseal is fine....

[p8ntballdealer]

the more i shoot my sim 4 the better it does. over 5 case of p8nt many games still no beefs.i just want to find a bolt for it .

[dhill0413]

for $500 i want a low end blowback to operate flawlessly....

[WarHamster]

Well a few things dhill:
1.) I only paid $309 for it
2.) Pretty much all the problems listed stem from the velocity issue, and I've had no problems since then.
3.) I performs just as well as any autococker I've seen, so calling it a low-end blowback seems a bit harsh.

[Cerebeus]

Harsh or not, that's all it is, a low end blowback with lots of accessories. And it performs as well as any autococker you've seen... Okay... Go shoot one and play a few games with one. Then see if it performs as well. =P

[WarHamster]

Umm... I kind of HAVE played with both. The SIM-4 performs exceptionally well, as you'd know if you'd ever used one. Perhaps it's the majority of players like you who have likely never seen a SIM-4 before that need to try a SIM-4 instead.

To address the low-end blowback comment I shall now quote our resident tech god over on Armotech.com forums.


"As to how far the spyder is from the armotech, sure, it was the techinical difference that I bought the SIM for anyways.

The Sim 4 unlike your conventional kingman products is a two piece "floated system" that free flows air through a gated system. Inversely, a spyder is a single stage frame, the "powertube" (cup, striker, velocity spring) resides in an upper chamber removed from the actual firing assembly. The SIM sits "low pro" in the hand already, to match it to the AR-15 they simply removed the "bell housing," the 1/4 to 1/2 inch of casing seperating the grip frame from the actual housing. As earlier stated, this body is two piece, "free-floated" to a certain extent, and as such expells gas rather than through a sealed pressure chamber. The closest to this design is the old Aggressor style frames. But even so, they regulate air through channeled passages, not straight up. Hence, you eat up as much gass by pushing the air through.

What does this mean in terms of difference? It shoots slightly faster, harder, and more precisely than any stock (or even slightly amateur rigged) spyder. Air flows more freely, faster, and efficiently. The break point is shorter and allows faster repeat shots. So what it shoots hot? Welts? That's the name of the game. "

Posted By: The_Armorer

Date Posted: June 21 2004 at 3:07pm


"Irregardless of comparisons made to and of such the effect that the SIM is even remotely related to the Spyder/Kingman product line is simply in and of it self absurd. The SIM-4 is a revolutionary new take on the bivalve (Not Clamshell nor any other version mullusk) stacked tube body design. To speak plain paintballer: It takes the double tube marker body of normal autoloaders and the independant chamber design of high grade cockers/mags and combines them. You get the striker/velocity chamber of an autoloader and the graduated breach/bolt of a cocker. Ad to that a suspended free flow air system and you get one bad Mother.

The only down side is that initially the marker shoots hot. Big deal, you want to shoot it right out of the box? You can cut the spring down. If you've got the patience you can work on it for a month and it'll shoot perfectly. Over all, you're getting the most ever f*cking loving bang out of your buck baby. If you're serious, you'll spend the time to read what's already been said about it on the forum. Don't worry about being heard, but for christ sake, look around. Read up. And think before you post."

Posted By: The_Armorer

Date Posted: July 2 2004 at 8:59pm

[matt311]

Im getting the Warsensor WS 66 A1 in two days similar to the Sim-4 but better... the Sim-4 will not be able to use the Armotech label soon.. the Armotech markers are at www.armotech.net

[WarHamster]

I find that amusing since you probably haven't seen a SIM-4. I've been nothing but impressed with mine.
As for not being able to use the Armotech label it's not like that changes anything. They're still making SIM-4's, still supporting all their guns, and still developing new guns (just look at the SIM-5 (the new MP5 marker) my friend just won on their forums). All that will be different is the name.

[matt311]

I know dude... iv been to every forum and seen the .com forum and everything where your friend computer dork friend won the MP5 that looks exactly like the one that .net used to make, when he unscrambled the code. in every forum that iv been too you are the only one that goes off on how good you Sim 4 is... you like yours.. great... but they are not Armotech. you even know this. The WS is better b/c it comes with the mag kit and a hop up barrel that the sim dosent have... I know that its better b/c the Sim i exactly like the WG when they copied all the parts .. eccept for the reciever.. but the reciever isnt going to be able to change the guns performance that much when its a blowback. the barrel on the WS66 is what makes it stand apart from the others. www.Warsensor.com

[matt311]

I do agree with you warhamster about the "low end blowback statement" ... Iv shot an automag (blow forward), an autococker and other closed bolts, and many many blowback guns. if correctly used and tweaked every one that iv shot can shoot just as good as the other. a paintball can only go so far and so fast period no matter what you shoot it out of. the autococker and so forth have less recoil which if you are going to spray paint makes it alittle easier and also use less gas which if you are going to spray paint wil make you be able to shoot more and they also shoot faster so ou can spray paint. humm... looks like everything is geard towards spraying paint if you ask me. So what have these new "high end" guns made paintball players? Lazy ass bad shots that spend lot n lots of money on paint. im sorry but speedball is just borning to me and is a waste of paint and money.

just my opinion. not tring to start a war here against the speedballers... please dont make it that way.

[240punk]

kinda my view on speedballers too... but i say that because i cant afford a good gun
haha

[matt311]

you can get a good gun for whatever price. trust me iv even shot a $1000 timmy before... still chopped balls... (might not have been tweak to best performance) but you will still chop balls.. it will still shoot just as far .. and just as accurate as the person shooting it will let it be. dont worry about what you cant afford worry about what you can afford and make become your gun... make sure its one you like the looks of, the feel of, and the price of, and something that makes it YOUR gun. then get to know your gun.. and it will become the best shooting gun youll ever have no matter what you paid for it. (just dont sleep with your gun, my wife dosnt like that too much) lol

[WarHamster]

As we've been saying to you over on PBnation for a while now (Robotech, WarDan, Hippboyscott, devilmountainsports, myself, etc.) JUST DROP IT. The court case is over & if you want to use a Warsim that's fine, but I don't see the need to go flaming SIM-4's. I like my SIM-4 & it's intenals are different enough from WS & WG guns that I don't really even see a conflict.

I'm not even going to bother arguing this ****ing point with you anymore. Let's just drop the fighting between armotech & ariakon & focus on defending our mil-sim gun against all the ignorant speedball/tourney players out there who refuse to admit a SIM-4, WG-65, or WS66 can beat an autococker. (as we all agreed should be done over on PBNation)


As for you 2nd two posts about the timmy & the low-end blowbacks, I couldn't agree more... <again cites The_Armorer from ariakon forums>

"Irregardless of comparisons made to and of such the effect that the SIM is even remotely related to the Spyder/Kingman product line is simply in and of it self absurd. The SIM-4 is a revolutionary new take on the bivalve (Not Clamshell nor any other version mullusk) stacked tube body design. To speak plain paintballer: It takes the double tube marker body of normal autoloaders and the independant chamber design of high grade cockers/mags and combines them. You get the striker/velocity chamber of an autoloader and the graduated breach/bolt of a cocker. Ad to that a suspended free flow air system and you get one bad Mother."

[inkjt510]

Nice review. But Matt, a timmy WILL shoot better than an armotech, and if it has a good ACE, no, it will not chop.

[WarHamster]

Have you seen the Nemesis though? I know it's only licensed through armotech, but I've heard that those are almost on par with Timmy's & considerably cheaper...

[matt311]

they are not armotech.

they are made in Tiawan and OEMed to Arikan or whatever your new name is. other companies already sells the same markers before Arikon or whatever got ahold of them.

INKJET, you are missing the point. its not about the gun or price of the gun ... its the player. kids these days go out and buy these $2000 guns and wonder why they cant play worth a crap.. well the gun isnt going to help you .. its all about the player and how they use the gun. I have a single trigger non-electro one shot long gun. and I guarentee I will shoot you before you get close enough to even see me.