[txaggie08]

Thanks to wichever mod stickied this.

HPA Q&A for beginners

This is the single most commonly asked question I see in the forums from beginners. I don’t mind answering it, but let me type this up and make a postable link. I realize there is one in Air systems, but this is oriented at answering the most common questions asked everyday.


Q. What is HPA?
A. HPA is high pressure air. Pure and simple, it is air compressed to anywhere from 3000 to 5000 psi. They are not the same as Co2 tanks, nor are ANY components from the two systems interchangeable.


Q. What is the difference in HPA and Nitrogen?
A. They are identical. Nitrogen is more commonly stored at 4500psi than Scuba systems are. Occasionally large fields will bring in nitrogen for events rather than using booster systems, but it is irrelevant witch you fill your tank with, as air is mostly comprised of nitrogen anyway.

Q. What do the numbers on an HPA tank mean?
A. Typical when you see an HPA tank described, you see a set of numbers like “68/4500”. Those numbers describe the capacity in cubic inches and the maximum pressure a tank is fillable to. For example the aforementioned 68/4500 would hold 68 cubic inches (ci) of air at a maximum of 4500pound per square inch (PSI). The higher the pressure and capacity, the more shots the tank can produce.

Q. Can (insert gun) use HPA?
A. Yes. All modern paintball guns can use high pressure air. It works in exactly the same way CO2 does, it delivers a compressed gas at a regulated level. Some guns require low pressure input, but most high pressure tanks will work even with those guns, as they have inline regulators to bring the air to appropriate pressure levels.

Q. “Man I don’t want HPA, it makes the gun hurt more”
A. This is an entirely false statement. If you have seen a gun with HPA shooting hard, it’s because the fool using it had the velocity on the gun turned up WAY to high. All paintball guns should be properly chronogrpahed at 270 fps, and whether it’s propelled with CO2 or HPA, 270 feet a second is 270 FPS. HPA does not magically make the ball hit harder, and you can prove that mathematically.

Q. What do I need to do to my gun to convert it to HPA?
A. If your HPA tank is a screw in model, absolutely nothing. You screw the filled tank directly into the ASA just like your co2 tank and start shooting. If the tank is not screw in, you will have to mount the regulator to your gun; witch is no more complicated than installing an ASA (aka. Bottomline adapter, or on/off) and connect macro, or a piece of braided hose with a quick disconnect fitting.

Q. (Roninnyc) Do I need a rail or an on/off to use HPA?
A. While both are nice to have, a normal bottomline is usable. A rail is a "dove tailed" piece that mounts to the bottom of the gun. You can then either slide an ASA or on/off asa, or your rail mount regulator (if you have one), like a maxflo, onto the rail. The rail will have small set screws that allow you to tighten the ASA or tank mount down. When you want to remove it, you simply loosen the set screw and remove the tank or asa. You can also adjust the position of the tank/asa forward or backwards. They are very convenient, especially with a non screw in tank. I will attempt to get a picture of this, as it’s easier to explain that way. An on/off assembly allows you to turn a knob to "turn on" gas flow from a screw in tank, and then shut it off when not using it. There nice to have, as it allows you to leave the tank installed on the gun and not have it gassed up.



Q. Do I need an adjustable tank or a regulator?
A. Simply, no. I like them, there nice to have, but not necessary. I personally have an AGD flatline tank, and like it, but it was a good deal and will be useful on several of my guns. You do not need the adjustbaility unless you plan to run no-secondary regulator. If you have a regulator on your gun, or have an internal regulator like a spyder does, you can feed a fixed outpts pressure into that regulator, and it will make no difference. Do not run a gun designed with an external regulator straight from a non-adjustbale air tank, you will overpressurize the gun.

Q. What is the difference in carbon wrapped tanks and steel tanks?
A. Carbon wrapped tanks are lighter, as the carbon wrap allows the inner tank to be thinner yet have more strength. Steel tanks are cheaper, but heavier. You will almost never see 4500psi systems in steel only tanks, but you can get fiber wrapped 3000psi, 4500psi, and occasionaly 5000psi tanks. Do not ever fill the tank beyond its recommended capacity.

Q. Can I put Co2 into my HPA tank.
A. No, no, and most resoundingly NO! Do not try it, do not let others try it. If they attempt to fill the tank the way a Co2 tank is filled, it could break the valve. If they did manage to fill via the fill nipple, it will fry the reg. There have also been reports years ago that putting CO2 in a carbon wrapped tank could cause the steel to pull away from the carbon. I cannot confirm that, but the theory was prevalent at one time.


***a correction here***
Carbon wrapped tanks can in fact hold CO2. a 68ci can hold aproximatley 25oz. However,they are very expensive and not worth the extra cost involved. They were common at the time of the old shoebox shockerm wich ran better on CO2. You would have to fit these tanks with pinvalves and find the manufacturers recommended CO2 capacity for them. They will not work well if used for co2, then later filled with HPA. -- Thanks to Torch for that correction

Q. I know some tanks aren’t screw in, how do you fill one?
A. All HPA tanks are filled via a quick disconnect fill nipple. Either a hose, or the scuba station, plug into this fitting and fills the tank. Again, you will fubar the tank if you get Co2 in it that way)

Q. My fill nipple/regulator/etc. has a leak and I was told to put a little oil of some variety in it.
A. DO NOT PUT OIL IN AN HPA TANK, even the regulator! I cannot over emphasize that. You are putting a petroleum based product, which will combust with pressure and heat. Filling your tank generates heat, and you’re putting it under 4500 psi of pressure, it WILL detonate. Don’t believe me, It happened at a professional event a month or so ago, I believe it was in Paris? It fired the reg OFF the tank and injured at least two people.

Q. Why do I need HPA?
A. Well, on a basic STBB gun like a spyder, you don’t. Once you move into the world of solenoid actuated electronic guns, it’s a necessity to avoid frying the electronics and o-rings. It’s a very good upgrade on any gun however, simply because of the consistency.

Q. Do I need an adjustable tank?
A. Simply, no. I like them, there nice to have, but not necessary. I personally have an AGD flatline tank, and like it, but it was a good deal and will be useful on several of my guns.

Q. Is it more dangerous to have an HPA tank than a Co2 tank since there at such high pressure?
A. At the time of this writing, I have seen two tanks rupture in ten years of playing paintball. One was a Co2 tank when a gentleman fell. It broke the pin valve off of it. The other was a HPA tank that the smucks over-pressurized on purpose to see what would happen with a fill compressor(ill withhold were that went on at….). Put a tank cover on, and HPA is no more dangerous than Co2 is.

Q. How much does it cost to get an HPA tank.
A. Used steel 45/3000 tanks cost 65-100 dollars. They run from there to 300$ for very nice brand new 68-88/4500 tanks with a adjustable regulator. Expect to pay around 150 for a good system that will last for a long time. Make sure the tank is within hydrostatic test date if you buy used.

Q. What is a “hydro” date.
A. The hydro date determines when the tank needs to be re-hydrostatically tested. This test means they will put the tank underwater, pressurize it, and determine the amount of expansion the tank has under pressure. Too much and the tank could fail. Typically a tank is tested every five years.

Q. Can i fill my own HPA tanks?
A. Yes. Scuba tanks can be used to fill up to around 3000psi with the use of a fill station. You can also use a booster pump to get to 4500, but they are wuite costly. Another alternative would be to rent a nitrogen tank from a gas supply company. Im unshure what kind of adapters are availiable to fill from those tanks however. A word of caution to this tale however. When filling a tank, you must do so slowly and not "flash" fill a tank. Filling to quickly can cause regulator issues, tank damage, or even a tank rupture. Flashing a tank causes the air to heat up very quickly, and is the main cause of the aformentioned oil explosion issues. Im unshure what the average "safe" fill rate is, perhaps someone more accustomed to filling tanks at a field can help me there.

Continued into next post

[txaggie08]

Q(soccerlu08). Can i take my HPA tank on an airplane?
A. In order to tank a tank onto an aircraft the safety inspection people must be able to see inside the tank. There is a valid reason for that, that 68+ci of space would hold a bomb perfectly capable of blowing a plane into tiny pieces. To take a tank onto a plane, you must have the regulator off. The only tank i know of that currently allows you to remove and install the regulator yourself that I know of is the micro maxflo. Otherwise, it must be done by a proffesional. The alternative to this is simple. Ship the tank to the friend you are visiting, or work with the field/pro-shop you are going to and ship it there. The reg is not required to be removed when shipping, but de-gassing is highly advisable.

Q. What is the difference in an LPA tank and an HPA tank? WIch do I need for my particular gun?
A. These terms are in fact refering to the ouput pressure from the regulator, or the range at wich an adjustable tank can output. LPA means "low pressure", were as HPA is "high pressure" output. I beleive the standard putput pressure are ~300psi on LP preset tanks(with 0-350 or so being the standard range on adjustables) and ~800psi(with ~400-1200 being the standard "stable" range on an adjustable) for a HP preset. Almost every gun on the market today will happily accept a HP preset tank. The aftermarket inline regulators on most guns can quite readily bring the pressure down into acceptable ranges, and all blowbacks are capable of handling an HP preset. Several of the older model angels function better with LP tanks, but I can't think of any others that would require it.

Q. You mainly mention 3kpsi tanks or 4.5kpsi tanks, what about the 5000psi tanks?
A. I ommited them more for convinience sake than anything. 5000 psi tanks are not common, but function the same as any other HPA(wether its LP or HP) tank. In a way, 5000psi is a gimmick, the odds of finding a fill station capable of actualy filling(or willing to fill) to 5000psi is fairly rare. If you find a good deal on a "5000psi tank", take it. They can be filled to 3000 or 4500 just as easily, and if you do find 500psi you have the option. Do not however, buy a tank [b]just[/]because it can hold an extra 500 psi. That small amount of extra air is going to provide a minimum impact to the life of a fill.

This Q&A is a pure work in progress. I would like to get some pictures of various tanks without there covers if people could provide them.

Please refrain from posting those pictures, or any corrections or additions in the thread. PM me , and I will correct or add to the Q&A and cite you as the author. I want to keep the post as clean as possible of anything except questions, which will be added and answered in the Q&A.

This material is my original work, Please do not reproduce it without my permission or properly citing me as the author.

Cory Watkins , Proudest member of the fightin Texas Aggie class of 2008, A-A-A WHOOP!

Contributors to the cause-(added as needed)

Torch
soccerlu08
c98ctombac
Roninnyc
huntin dawg
demonpoptart

[txaggie08]

reserved for me

[txaggie08]

reserved for the guide

[Huntin Dawg]

nice guide but
u forgot to add LPA in this guide. what guns need LPA and whats difference between HPA and LPA. many people do not understand LPA.

[txaggie08]

it will get added when i have a break from classes to get it done

[demonpoptart]

dont forget to mention how to tell the difference from hpa and lpa...

and if you listed something about all the different sizes of tanks and etc it would help as well...

just one more thing, at one point you said:

"Used steel 45/3000 tanks cost 65-100 dollars. They run from there to 300$ for very nice brand new 68-88/4500 tanks with a adjustable regulator. Expect to pay around 150 for a good system that will last for a long time. Make sure the tank is within hydrostatic test date if you buy used."

as well as:

"Carbon wrapped tanks are lighter, as the carbon wrap allows the inner tank to be thinner yet have more strength. Steel tanks are cheaper, but heavier. You will almost never see 4500psi systems in steel only tanks, but you can get fiber wrapped 3000psi, 4500psi, and occasionaly 5000psi tanks. Do not ever fill the tank beyond its recommended capacity."

but you do not mention 5000 psi tanks in the price thing, i think that could confuse some playwer who do not quite understand what's going on already...

[s0c0mnati0n]

can you put c02 in steel 48/3000 tanks? i heard someone at my school say you can.

[hawkeye101]

so basically you need hpa tank to get hpa air and if i want to get some i need to go to my friendly neighborhood local paintball guys and ask them to fill up my tank ? is it more expensive? is it just easyier to get the scuba thingy

[txaggie08]

You should be able to put CO2 into the HPA tank, with the proper pin valve installed of course, BUT!, im not going to guarantee its a smart maneauver. If you do it its at your own risk.

Hawkeye, that depends on wether your playing out in the woods or at a field. A scuba tank is better if your playing somewere without a fill station, but obviously is a wase to bring to a field that will fill air anyway.

[xPiZZeRx]

Yes, you can put CO2 in an HPA tank. No, don't do it. CO2 tanks are designed for CO2, HPA tanks are designed for air. Just leave it at that. Besides, the guys at your shop wouldn't even do that if you asked them.

Yes, only air should go in your HPA tank. Most paintball shops will be able to fill your HPA tank. No, it's basically the same price as CO2, to fill that is. And I'd rather buy a compressor than my own scuba tank and fill station, lol. But they're expensive as hell.

[TheGhost]

I heard you could put nitrogen or hpa into a co2 tank because both were dryer gases. Is this true?

[imprez55]

do not put hpa into a co2 tank. That = very bad.
co2 is pressurized around 800 psi, while hpa (as the name implies) is pressuried either at 3000 or 4500 psi. You should not interchange the gasses at all.

edit: technically co2 is not a dryer gas in relation to paintball. While it is in the tank it is pressurized and is in a liquid form. Once some of the pressure is released the liquid turns into a gas. That is why people what an anti-syphon (so they get pre-expanded gas instead of some liquid which expands more and causes fluctuations in consistancy) A little off topic but just trying to help.

[xPiZZeRx]

Ya, CO2 isn't really at all a "drier gas" since it's a liquid when under pressure.

HPA/compressed air/nitrogen is all the same, and is never in liquid form. And as said, is stored at a much higher pressure for this reason. A CO2 tank's burst disk would blow very quickly if it was filled with compressed air, and I'd imagine that the liquid CO2 would not only harm the seals found in a compressed air tank's regulator, but also the tank itself, and make it weaker.

All in all, don't mix the two.

[txaggie08]

I have very little else to add on that. I have some editing to do and think i will put a disclaimer in about this.

There are FEDERAL regulations controlling gas cylinders. If someone inapropriatly fills a tank, you are violatings those safety regulations. These are in place for a reason, and should be obeyed. I dont think some of you understand what 4000psi will do to you.


If you have any doughbt a steel or carbon/steel tank blowing is lethal, watch the episode of mythbusteres that aired recently. They knocked the valve off a 3000psi,12 CF i beleive(large tank made for welding), with it on itside aimed at a wall....Keep in mind this tank weighs ~40#'s empty.... It fired the tank THROUGH a cinder block wall, and halfway through a second reinforced concrete wall. If you think that will not break you in half like a rag doll you need to re-think the school system your being educated in.

The point is, DONT SCREW AROUND WITH HPA! The tanks are designed, by engineers with formal training in the area, to do exactly what there doing with the least likelehood of danger. Don't start backyard engineering something to save a few dollars. HPA tanks these days are not that expensive.....

[txaggie08]

I have made a few additions to the guide as requested. I beleive im also going to produce a copy of the regulations governing cylinder manufacture/use.