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**dhill0413** · October 7th, 05:40 PM

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Originally Posted by NWanner

I enjoy a good philosophical discussion, but I also see philosophy as a fantasy mindset that does not correlate to the real world. Being able to relate to an experience and actually experiencing it are still two seperate events.

Agreed completely. Science, economics, politics, philosophy: many things are spoken about within a vacuum. I don't find viewing human life as valuable as being a fantasy or out of touch with the real world. I believe sacrifices must be made in order to preserve the life of those unborn children. Financial, life-altering changes should be made to ensure this baby has a good life.

I also believe that all parents should be good parents. We all know this is not the case. Laws protect children from parental abuse as best they can. I want legislation to protect unborn children as well. Not enable the killing of those unborn children.

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Also, no I stongly think the United States Military and Government should not get involved in any foreign issue (unless it involves our country directly) short of maybe selling arms to that country. I hold this position on the matter as not only a conservative U.S. Citizen, but also a service member to that country.

As a Catholic I think more in global terms. I was born in San Diego. Some kid born 35 miles south of where I was born has an exponentially harder and disadvantaged life because he was born in Tijuana. That isn't fair and life isn't fair. I believe we owe it to not our fellow Americans, but to our fellow humans to offer a better standard of life. We should have an active method to get the millions of illegal immigrants integrated as citizens. That means they're paying taxes and contributing to the system while reaping the benefits of a US life.

Just because some kid is born in Serbia/Yugoslavia, or Uganda to a certain pair of parents, he's targeted for ethnic cleansing. I believe we owe it to our fellow people in the world to enable a better standard of life. Lets look at the world, not just many people's narrow scope of US citizens alone.

NWanner · October 8th, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dhill0413

As a Catholic I think more in global terms. I was born in San Diego. Some kid born 35 miles south of where I was born has an exponentially harder and disadvantaged life because he was born in Tijuana. That isn't fair and life isn't fair. I believe we owe it to not our fellow Americans, but to our fellow humans to offer a better standard of life. We should have an active method to get the millions of illegal immigrants integrated as citizens. That means they're paying taxes and contributing to the system while reaping the benefits of a US life.

Just because some kid is born in Serbia/Yugoslavia, or Uganda to a certain pair of parents, he's targeted for ethnic cleansing. I believe we owe it to our fellow people in the world to enable a better standard of life. Lets look at the world, not just many people's narrow scope of US citizens alone.

I'm all for that, but I think we need to take care of our own first. There are way to many issues stateside to be trying to help out others right now. On average life in America is much better than elsewhere in the world, but it's not that great for some.

**lovetocheat69** · October 15th, 03:51 PM

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Originally Posted by dhill0413

Why punish an unborn child for the crime of another? Can you tell how and where your friend were conceived? You could be a rape baby and no one would know the difference.

Instead, lets punish the mother with 9 months of pregnancy and child birth for a baby that was conceived by her being raped?

You have no ****ing argument.

Soul_Fly · October 15th, 04:20 PM

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Originally Posted by dhill0413

My challenge: Tell me why abortion should be legal.

Opening argument, taken from some 230 year-old document:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Two things;

A) Quit living in the past!
B) It's not YOUR choice to make, it is the woman who is pregnant. And she, who lives in the so-called "land of the free" can do whatever she deems necessary for her own well being.

It's just that cut and dry.

**dhill0413** · October 15th, 08:15 PM

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Originally Posted by lovetocheat69

Instead, lets punish the mother with 9 months of pregnancy and child birth for a baby that was conceived by her being raped?

You have no ****ing argument.

It isn't "punishing" the mother. What it is is NOT punishing the baby. I look at EVERY life as a blessing, and your narrow-minded view that a baby as a result of a rape as nothing but a punishment is severely flawed.

Please refrain from using obscenities if you're going to debate in this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul_Fly

Two things;

A) Quit living in the past!
B) It's not YOUR choice to make, it is the woman who is pregnant. And she, who lives in the so-called "land of the free" can do whatever she deems necessary for her own well being.

It's just that cut and dry.

A) By living in the past, you mean valuing each and every life as precious...then no.

B1)It is currently the woman's choice. I hope it is changed.

B2) If she lives in the land of the free, then so does the human inside of her. That baby should be able to survive until such a time it can make it's own choices.

Now it is cut and dried from my point of view.

**toXic** · October 28th, 04:22 PM

I just had a strange thought...

Conservatives are anti-abortion and for the death penalty...

And Liberals are pro-abortion but against the death penalty?

Doesn't make much sense on the liberals side in my opinion. At least the conservatives can say the children are innocent, so theyh should live. And the convicted people are deserving to die.

What can the liberals say? Unborn babies shouldn't live, but convicted murders should live???

**dhill0413** · October 28th, 11:03 PM

I think the liberal argument would be that they are not pro abortion...they are pro choice.

Though I'm Catholic, and I believe in pro-life in both babies and criminals. I'm a conservative against the death penalty

**Number One Andrew** · October 29th, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NWanner

I'm all for that, but I think we need to take care of our own first. There are way to many issues stateside to be trying to help out others right now. On average life in America is much better than elsewhere in the world, but it's not that great for some.

Care to explain your position a little more in detail? I hear this argument all the time, but never any good reasons to back it up.

And on abortion- I'm definitely against abortion but the issue of outlawing it has always concerned me.

I've always looked at it this way. We know that if we leave the embryo alone, it'll eventually form into a child. You could compare it to someone being in a short term coma- you know that if you leave them alone, they'll wake up in a few months. With that in mind, I'm sure most of you will agree that if you stop feeding them, you're murdering them (Unless for some reason they told you before the coma that if they were ever in even a short term coma to let them die. However, since a fetus/embryo/whatever never gave you permission to terminate it, you don't have the same right). During the coma, the patient is dependent on the nurses and doctors to live. Likewise, the child is dependent on the mother for support (and will continue to be until, say, age 20-something

).

And if anyone brings up the whole "oh, then wasted semen is murdering too" counter-argument- the semen won't form life by itself. It's not our responsibility to create life, only to protect that which already exists.

I'm sure this was rambling, but I hope to see some feedback. Abortion is one of those social issues that is almost nothing but gray area, so it's interesting to see how different everyone's personal opinions are.

**buddhaHybrid** · November 7th, 12:50 PM

what happened to the pursuit of happiness? I think being raped and then burdened with a baby would be less than happy, but hell, if all she has to do is "switch" political sides to make everything better then why not? Thanks for quoting a paradox.... rofl.

**dhill0413** · November 10th, 06:35 PM

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Originally Posted by buddhaHybrid

what happened to the pursuit of happiness? I think being raped and then burdened with a baby would be less than happy, but hell, if all she has to do is "switch" political sides to make everything better then why not? Thanks for quoting a paradox.... rofl.

I believe that baby, whether one of the parents is a rapist or not, has the right to the pursuit of happiness. Don't punish an innocent baby for the crimes of it's father. You wouldn't kill Osama Bin Laden's innocent relative who hasn't even spoken to Osama or any other terrorists.

Studies indicate women who have had abortions after a rape or an incestuous sexual relationship almost always regret the abortion. It adds another level of loss and trauma to an already-traumatized victim.

Rape/Incest Pain

Fooze · November 10th, 08:06 PM

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Originally Posted by ComradeMolyneux

Secondly, the host is harmed, the parasitic fetus is leeching off minerals, vitamins, etc. from the host. That which the fetus consumes cannot also be used by the mother.

Wrong. the fetus-mother relationship is not parasitism, it is commensalism, since the mother is not SIGNIFICANTLY harmed. it's comparable to a bird living in a flower-bearing shrub. the shrub may not become pollinated if the birds keep bees or butterflies away, but the bird's presence won't kill it.

the same can be said for abortion. the baby's presence won't kill the mother, but it does take nutrients from her.

I'm against abortion. the heart starts beating on its own after 6 weeks, and the fetus starts producing brain patterns after 7 weeks. anyone who says it isn't alive is ignorant or plain stupid.

**ComradeMolyneux** · November 11th, 11:01 AM

I don't care about arguing this stuff anymore, but take this!

CDC Health Marketing | TV Writer/Producer Tip Sheet: Pregnancy Complications and Death

**Number One Andrew** · November 11th, 11:21 AM

Why is this in "Resources for TV Writers and Producers"?

****ing CDC.

**imhungry** · November 11th, 11:41 AM

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Originally Posted by kenny_1491

I am against it. Stem cell research is another topic that deals with abortion.

stemcell research is probably the single most important research being done now in terms of overall potential impact. if it takes a scrambling a few babies to find the cure for cancer, aids, paralysis, lost limbs, basically any chronic disease then **** them. greater good is greater

besides, the VAST majority of stem cells are already being cultured w/o any abortions having to be preformed. i remember reading a lot about it a few years back, ill try to find some stuff to back this up later

on another note, i could really give 2 ****s about abortion. i personally think there are MUCH MUCH MUCH larger issues that need to have even a fraction of the attention abortion recieves focused on them. if abortion is legal how bad does that really hurt america? i would venture to say other health issues (yes i put abortion under a health issue, as well as human rights) such as heart disease, cancer and AIDS are far more important. the economy, war, and healthcare are all VASTLY more important to this country then abortion. people just get all sensitive that a potential baby is getting scrambled up like an egg and is possibly being cheated out of life (depending on what side you take).

the only time i really have a stance on abortion is if a women gets raped. i see no problem if she chooses to abort the fetus as he had no choice or say in its conception

**ComradeMolyneux** · November 11th, 12:15 PM

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Originally Posted by Number One Andrew

Why is this in "Resources for TV Writers and Producers"?

****ing CDC.

lol, didn't even see(dc) that. honestly, ****ing cdc.

NorCalBaller · November 15th, 05:22 PM

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The US currently has a negative birthrate.

better that than have a positive rate, we're barely feeding the hungry right now as it is.

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Then why are people allowed to take loans and use credit when they are unable to support monthly payments?

but they aren't taking it from the goverment, those are privately owned companies, and yes, sometimes companies do go bankrupt, but that's why those very same companies pay their insurance. the goverment makes more money on that then they have to spend.

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Why punish an unborn child for the crime of another? Can you tell how and where your friend were conceived? You could be a rape baby and no one would know the difference.

Why punish the woman? a law biting citizen. and how would you feel growing up that your dad was just some random rapist on the street? i would be devastated if i were in that position.

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We care so much about the life and potential of an unborn baby that we want that child to have the chance to grow, thrive, experience everything that life has to offer. Some of life is tragic, some is magic, but every unborn child has the right to experience it for themselves.

the question is where do we draw the line, according to your logic we should be saving every egg from all woman because they have the "possibility" of life..

and who are you to say what a woman CAN'T do with her own body? those eggs are hers to do with however she pleases, and if im not mistaken, birth is EXTREMELY painful.. how DARE you force that upon someone else.

NorCalBaller · November 15th, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Number One Andrew

I've always looked at it this way. We know that if we leave the embryo alone, it'll eventually form into a child. You could compare it to someone being in a short term coma- you know that if you leave them alone, they'll wake up in a few months. With that in mind, I'm sure most of you will agree that if you stop feeding them, you're murdering them (Unless for some reason they told you before the coma that if they were ever in even a short term coma to let them die. However, since a fetus/embryo/whatever never gave you permission to terminate it, you don't have the same right). During the coma, the patient is dependent on the nurses and doctors to live. Likewise, the child is dependent on the mother for support (and will continue to be until, say, age 20-something

that's completely different though, the person in the coma has more going for them though, they have a place to live, friends that'll miss that person, a family that'll suffer from the loss of that person, and plenty of other stuff you can't compare apples and oranges my friend

**Number One Andrew** · November 15th, 08:49 PM

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Originally Posted by NorCalBaller

that's completely different though, the person in the coma has more going for them though, they have a place to live, friends that'll miss that person, a family that'll suffer from the loss of that person, and plenty of other stuff you can't compare apples and oranges my friend

Um, a baby will have a place to live (be it with it's birth parents, foster parents, etc), it will eventually socialize, and it obviously already has a family.