WarHamster

Just reposting this review incase anyone is curious since the old one was lost when the forum got hacked. I haven't encountered any new problems in the three or four times I've been since I worte this review, and the gun is still working excellently. So without further adeu, off into my review (heh bad rhyme).

First the cons:

-The gun is finicky. I spent nearly a week (most of that waiting on a new spring though) fixing random things on it before I got it firing properly. Either I had a bad Gun, or Armotech doesn't check these things enough when they leave the factory. See the bottom of this post for a list of problems I encountered and how they were fixed.

-It's fairly heavy. While I was at the field today I was wishing I had a remote system (which I conveniently bought on the way home).

-It can be a pain to clean if paint gets into the wrong parts. i.e. the sight adjustment knobs or into certain areas of the gun.

-The gun shoots entirely too hot. Even turned all the way down, I had to cut three rungs off my firing spring to get it firing under 280fps.

-The gun is too bulky for speedball. There were a few scenarios even in woodsball where it was a bit too bulky for my bunker and firing it was awkward.

-The velocity adjustment screw must be taken out to access the spring, striker, etc. This means you must chrono again EVERY time you open you gun up to clean, oil, or whatever.


Now the Pros:

-It may be that the gun is just new, but my gun was shooting considerably farther then even the high end guns at the field. (I had 3 guys swearing I was shooting hot because of how far my shots were going and when I went to chrono I shot a 256, 262, & 259)

-It's far more consistent then my Pirhana or my friend's Spider. (for those who say that it's just a Spider in costume) While I'm not going to lie and say it's better than an angel or timmy, because I didn't get a chance to compare closely, it's definatly was pretty good.

-It's extremely quiet for a paintball gun. While it's not the QUIETEST gun I've ever heard, it was pretty damn quiet. I managed to pick a guy off from thick brush at about 20 feet without his friends knowing exactly where I was.

-The gun is fairly easy to work on ONCE you get the hang of it. As I said it is finicky, but once I got used to it there's nothing too hard to fix.

-Obviously the gun looks amazing. I had a good 1/3 the field stop by to look at my gun. Even the people who knew what it was were checking it out. When I asked my friend to hold it while I adjusted my throat mike, 3 or 4 guys behind me who I didn't even know were like "I'll hold it!" Even if everyone didn't actually come over to look at it I think everyone at LEAST stopped and did a double take when they first saw it. Finally, there's nothing like newbies who think a the gun makes a paintball player good (not vice-versa), having their jaws drop and a look of awe come over them when they see it.

-The one time I had to call tech support (about the tangled spring I talk about below). They were EXTREMELY kind and helpful. The man sent me 2 replacement body pins without even thinking twice cause mine were a bit loose. Likewise when I told him about my spring (again discussed below) he sent me a new spring no problem (I had to pay for a second one, but still).


Now the problems I encountered working on it

-When I got the gun the two pins that held the body halves together were loose.
(Armotech sent me replacement body pins free of charge that work beautifully)

-The first time I fired the gun, it burped my entire tank dry before I could disconnect the air. When I opened it up it has trashed (tangled) my firing spring and shredded the O-ring on my striker. (Again armotech sent me a replacement spring. However, I had to pay $5, for a second spring, since I asked him to send me 2 springs)

-After I got the new spring I realized that the problem lies in the velocity adjustment. If it is in too far, it messes up the spring and causes the gun to burp like it did (i.e. the end of the spring is in farther then the face of the thingy you screw it into). However, when you consider it's shooting nearly 500 fps like that I guess it's to be expected... (No real solution for this, however it's not really a problem if you just understand that is how the velocity screw works)

-Since I got the new spring and got the gun firing, air leaks out of the barrel when I have the gun uncocked with air on. As soon as I cock it it stops and it's fine, and obviously it recocks itself so this isn't really a problem. (I have found no solution to this yet. However it's more of an annoyance then a problem.)

-The parts are very rare. I went to 4 paintball stores looking for a spring and even a hardware store to see if I could have one MADE before I broke down and called armotech. (I plan to solve this by machining the gun to take Spider springs after my 90 day warranty is up)

-The gun shoots too hot out of the factory. Even with the velocity screw as low as it would go, I couldn't get it firing under 400 fps. (I clipped 3 rungs off of the velocity spring and now it fires at 280 when the screw is about about 3/4 of the way in)

So yeah, there are the problems I've had with it. As you can see it IS extremely finicky, but I've managed to get past all of it, and now (aside for the air leaking when it's uncocked) the gun works wonderfully.

Conclusion
Was the gun a pain in the ***? Yes. Was it worth it for how cool the gun is once I finally got it working? Again Yes. It performs beautifully now, and I have a friend considering getting one after seeing mine.

While I can't reccomend it as a first-time gun. I would whole-heartedly reccomend it based on my experiences so far, for someone looking for a milsim gun or a good woodsball gun.

Alpha

You got a cheap knockoff. SIM-4 isn't made by the real armotech. www.armotech.us . Not www.armotech.com or .net . The only Armotech markers made today are the WG-65, the Zeus series, and a bunch of regular paintball markers that have names like pluto and stuff... And stuff.

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WarHamster

I shouldn't even dignify that with a response... However...

I'm not even going to START with who is the real armotech I'll just let this little story speak for itself.

Shortly after I got my SIM-4 I was at my field store (Fox River Games) looking to get an allen wrench tool for it. I wasn't sure if it was metric or standard so I had to bring it in to see. Before I even got it to the counter, the guys at the store burst out laughing. "YOU GOT AN ARMOTECH! Oh man, what a sap. Those guns are complete crap! They're just spyders with body kits on it and they're like 90% plastic"

Well when I actually got to the counter with it and showed it to them, low and behold EVERYONE wants to hold it! Oh look it's not mostly plastic! Oh look it's durable & well constructed. "Yeah but how does it fire?" Well all I had to do was take it out back with them and they were sold. The store is considering carrying SIM-4's now because they were so impressed with mine.

On top of that, there are quite a few good reviews for the SIM-4 out there from satisfied customers (me for one). I've YET to see a single review of the WG-65 either way. All I ever get from the people who use them is flames towards the SIM-4. Why don't you guys stop flaming us and start defending your own gun instead.

I love my SIM-4 and I won't stand for people calling it a cheap ripoff. If it is indeed a cheap ripoff then I find it's ironic that the ripoff surpassed the original in quality.


Finally I noticed you called armotech.net a ripoff site. You might be interested to know that not only does .net sell the WG series (not the SIM series), but that they are associated with .us.

I'm not going to say armotech.com is the original since I don't have the facts pertaining to that. However, I think YOU should get your facts straight before you going flaming and toss out incorrect information.

Elrodvoss

Well I am a advid reader on the armotech.us forum. Though they cant talk about the .com site on there forum here is the details that I have gotten so far.

Armotech is made over seas. The .us and the .net are the main websites. One is the company, other is a distrubeter (sorry cant spell tonight).

From what I understand the .com site was another distrubater that went "rouge" for lack of a better term.

So they desided to create their own line of paintball war-sim markers, but due to the copyright laws between USA and other countries, there is a legal battle to see who owns the name ARMOTECH.

The reason everyone calls .com a knock off, aint cause its plastic, but cause it copies the .net/.us markers,

This is why you see soo few reviews on Armotech's There is no way to tell whos marker is whos. You see the SIM-4 pimped everywhere with the armotech name on it. That is the "knock off".

Dont take offence. Im not knocking the quality of the sim4 marker, only cause I havent used it yet. I can tell from experience that armotech.us markers are very high priced compaired to other pain ball guns of same performance.

But when I got my Zeus G2 Limited in (5 week delay due to demand), the 1st think I noticed was it was alot heaver then the PTX that I had. This thing was not just plactic and pop can aluminum. This this was solid and sturdy.

Armotech.us prides its self on makeing markers that are as real as you can get to the real weapons (weight, size, balance, recoil, etc). In my opinion, that is what you are paying for.


My Zeus G2 pistol costed me like 400 be the time im done. I could get a sweet full size maker with that cash. But with the Zeus, I can take 10 Mins between games and go from a pistol to a full size marker with 8 inch barrel, hopper, folding stock, bottomline, and e-trigger (14 BPS max) and use my PTX as backup.

The biggest problem with the zeus are they shoot like 350-375 out of the box at times. You have to either wear down the spring, or cut 2-5 off, but they are deisgned for that.


But until the legal battle is over, you will have nothing but confusion over armotech SIM-4s and armotech WGs and all their other markers.


Bottomline: The Sim-4s are "copy-cats" and not orginals from the parent and 1st armotech company. ( though they are spyder-clones, cause of the blowback design)

WarHamster

Yeah, we aren't supposed to talk about .us or .net on the .com forums (of which I'm an avid reader). Stories vary from person to person, but most of what you said fits in with what I've heard.

However, it's not even so much an issue of which gun is a ripoff anymore because we got news from our admin on .com forums that the trial is just about rights to the armotech name; and the SIM-4 (as well as the new pistol & MP5 markers due out later this year) will stay in production (under the armotech name or another... it doesn't matter).

Even if the armotech that makes the SIM-4's is the ripoff it's not like it really matters. The SIM-4's are good guns. I've been nothing but impressed with them. Like I said, my field store is now considering carrying them and the majority of the ppl I've showed it to were extremely impressed (the exception being the hardcore tourney players; you know the kind I'm talking about, with Timmy's, dye jerseys & pants, etc.)

Finally to address the armotech's being spider clones I'll post a nice piece from armotech.com's resident tech god the Armorer. He had a nice long article on how the SIM-4's were different (and superior) than spiders. Now it seems I can't find the article, so I'm PMing him asking him to send it to me and asking if I have permission to repost his work here under his name.

WarHamster

Here we go. The follow-up post with the differences betwen a Spider & a SIM-4 for all you guys. Courtesy of the_armorer over at armotech.com's forums.

"As to how far the spyder is from the armotech, sure, it was the techinical difference that I bought the SIM for anyways.

The Sim 4 unlike your conventional kingman products is a two piece "floated system" that free flows air through a gated

system. Inversely, a spyder is a single stage frame, the "powertube" (cup, striker, velocity spring) resides in an upper

chamber removed from the actual firing assembly. The SIM sits "low pro" in the hand already, to match it to the AR-15

they simply removed the "bell housing," the 1/4 to 1/2 inch of casing seperating the grip frame from the actual

housing. As earlier stated, this body is two piece, "free-floated" to a certain extent, and as such expells gas rather than

through a sealed pressure chamber. The closest to this design is the old Aggressor style frames. But even so, they

regulate air through channeled passages, not straight up. Hence, you eat up as much gass by pushing the air through.

What does this mean in terms of difference? It shoots slightly faster, harder, and more precisely than any stock (or even

slightly amateur rigged) spyder. Air flows more freely, faster, and efficiently. The break point is shorter and allows faster

repeat shots. So what it shoots hot? Welts? That's the name of the game. "

Posted By: The_Armorer

Date Posted: June 21 2004 at 3:07pm

Elrodvoss

I dont doubt the quality of the guns, just the "method" of promoting the name. But that is for the courts to deside.

I personaly have never fired off any .com style weapons, just like few people have used any of the .net/.us markers. 75% of the people in the forums here are speed ball style and they dont see the point of spending the extra 50-100 for a milsim marker.

Personaly I like the feel of a "real" weapon, to the sci-fi look of the speedball markers.

But when the courts finaly desided once and for all who the name belongs too and all the appeals are over with, all the comfusion over "who is armotech" will be over.

WarHamster

I agree. I rarely play speedball (mostly woodsball) and the extra weight and feel of a "real" gun makes the game a lot more enjoyable.

As for spending more money on it, that all depends. I know a lot of dealers you can haggle with if you call them. They'll cut you deals & so on. I got my basic SIM-4 from action village for $309 with my friend's d/c there (he works at the warehouse). Likewise I know several people on the .com forums got their guns new from official vendors for under $400. Also, I think the armotechs perform just as well as any autococker I've yet seen, and they're a lower price then 90% of the autocockers on the marker (unless you buy an elite or R.I.S marker which strikes me as excessive).

p8ntballdealer

the sim4 that i have got in march . the only trouble i've had was it shot hot out of the box.clipped the spring like 3 or 4 twist shots 285 now even after like 5 case of paint . seems to like all p8nt but really likes the bigballs. the only otherthing i had a problem in the polishing of the barrel. i called armotech and they sent anouther barrel . i'm very happy camper

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i deal in p8nt friend

Alpha

I never flamed. The Sim-4 is the knockoff. And All I've heard is that its a tank. I hate both the armotech Sim-4 and the Armotech WG-65. All it is is a almost-M16/M4 style marker. I'd rather get a rap4.. More realistic. But because it has a hopper and a CO2 tank/remote comming off it, it just looks dumb to me.

But thats my opinion. I doubt most of you can point out any or all of the differences from the WG-65/Sim-4 and the real M16A1/A2/ M4.

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Johnny_Fred

is the sim-4 or the wg-65 better???

WarHamster

Johnny Fred, I haven't really used the WG-65 (only seen one of two of them), so I can't tell you how it is. However, I can tell you I've been very satisfied with my SIM-4 & it is a solid marker if you're willing to fix the velocity & play with it a bit a first.



Alpha I will admit that the Rap4 is a bad ass gun. However, I have a few issues with it.

1.) It uses 40 & 43 caliber balls which means most fields won't allow it.
2.) You have to put the balls into shell casings then load those into the magazine.
3.) Unless you use the biodegradable shell casings you have to FIND all the casing
unless you want to buy more. If you DO use biodegradable casings then it means you're effectively buying twice the ammo.

It is a cool gun though, and if I were gonna be playing somewhere other then a field, I'd definatly want one. As for differences between the SIM-4 & real M4's... they're almost too numerous to name. The SIM-4 looks a lot like a M4 but aside from the look it's different in almost ever way. But here's a few to get started and satisfy you

1.) The SIM-4 comes apart in two pieces where the M4's fold forward on a hinge where the upper & lower reciever meet.
2.) The SIM-4 doesn't have the casing discharge port in the front right (as it has no casings to dispose of).
3.) The SIM-4 is a double trigger where as the M4/16 family has a single trigger.
4.) The SIM-4 isn't clipfed and M4/16's obviously don't use hoppers.
5.) The length of barrel between the flash suppressor & the front aiming triangle is shorter on the SIM-4's.
6.) There is no fire selector on the SIM-4 (you use and E-Trigger to achieve burst & auto)
7.) The charging handle on the SIM-4 is a slightly different shape from the M4/16 family.
8.) The handle on the rear right used to fix jams (the name escapes me at the moment) isn't present on the SIM-4.

Need I go on? Or will that do for now Alpha?

Johnny_Fred

wow, you sure no ur armotechs... so the sim-4's can have scopes and flashlights and lasers and stuff... how is the accuracy on a sim-4, and wat about other barrels? can it use those??? also how expensive is it, and wat are the differences between it and the other types of sim-4's, such as elites and the R.I.S or watever there called??? thanks

Johnny_Fred

sry for double posting, but.... is it worth the money?

WarHamster

Err lets see here to address your questions.

1.) Yes, SIM-4's can mount flashlights, lasers, etc.
-You can buy a sight rail that allows you to mount ONE accessory on top.
-You can buy a SIM-4 Elite which comes with a "elite" sight rail that allows for mounting up to 4 accessories (the SIM-4 Elite also comes with a 4x scope & laser sight)
-You can buy the SIM-4 R.I.S. (Rail Interface System) which has mounting places for 4 to 8 accessories (whatever you want) around the barrel.
-Or you can combine the RIS & the elite into the SIM-4 Elite RIS which has the elite rail (including the scope & laser I mentioned) AND the RIS system.

Obviously the basic SIM-4 is cheapest at $400 (unless you contact a dealer and try to haggle yourself a deal) and they go up in price from there. The SIM-4 RIS is $470, the SIM-4 Elite (with elite rail, scope, & laser) is $500, and the combination of the two (the SIM-4 RIS Elite) is $570.

They sell upgrade kits for the SIM-4 that turn it into a SIM-4 elite or SIM-4 RIS, so you can always just buy a SIM-4 then upgrade later when you know what you want & have money.



2.) While the SIM-4 technically has the threads to mount spider barrels, in actuality it won't because the length of barrel BEHIND the threads is different from a Spider barrel. Therefore you won't be able to mount custom barrles without modding them a little bit (which has been done, but I don't recommend it). This isn't too much of a problem though as I think the SIM-4 has the best "stock" barrel I've ever seen. I've had no desire to upgrade past it. However, if you do want to upgrade Armotech also offers a 20" version of the stock barrel that will work straight out of the box.


3.) I'd say that as far is consistancy goes, the SIM-4 is about on par with mid to high end autocockers. As far as range, I'd say it's higher then the majority of guns. However, it's range still falls short of a flatline system. These are just my PERSONAL observations from playing with all the guns & observing them used in the same game. I've never sat down and run formal tests to prove any of it.


4.) Is it worth the money? That's a hard question to answer because it will vary for every person...
-If you're a speedball player I'd say no, because the gun is too heavy & large to be used in a small cramped fast paced field like speedball. You won't be able to take cover behind bunkers & pop out like you could with a smaller gun. I'd reccommend and autococker if you're going for speedball.
-If you're afraid to get inside your gun & work on it I'd say no. All SIM-4's come out of the box shooting hot & their spring needs to be cut 3 or 4 rings to fire at a legal velocity. Likewise, I DID have to fix some things when I got mine (mostly stemming from the velocity issue, but still). While the gun hasn't given me any trouble since the initial problems I had when I got it, the fact that I did have to fix some of it when I got it means the less technically inclined might want to steer clear & get a tippman instead.

HOWEVER, if you're looking for a good Mil-Sim or woodsball gun & the SIM-4's appeal to you... Their performace backs up their looks & overall I've been very satisfied with mine.


Err... did that answer all your questions?

Johnny_Fred

yes, thank you, wat does mil-sim stand for? and i actually like 'tinkering' around with my paintball gun, it gives me something to do, outside of paintballing. i'm probably going to get the sim-4 elite in a while for woodsball which i mostly play, and the odd scenario or 2...how heavy i it? compared to the 98c's with a hopper and a tank on? do they have low pressure setups ?

Johnny_Fred

AHHHHHHHH everyone's saying that sim-4's suck and they shoot as well as spyder clones... but i want one... r they as good as spyder clones??? if not, do you have proof

WarHamster

SIM-4's are very heavy guns. I'd suggest you get a remote line. Mil-Sim means a military simulation gun (aka looks real).

As for ppl saying it sucks and shoots as well as spyder clones? I'm willing to bet 90% of them have never even SEEN a SIM-4 in person. I think the SIM-4 shoots just as well as any mid to high range autococker. However, I'm not going to keep fighting an uphill battle against morons that don't know what they're talking about. If you want to listen to the uninformed masses go ahead. I suggest you look at the facts and actual reviews of the gun (not just people saying it sucks) and make up your own mind.