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Old December 4th, 2012, 02:27 PM   #1 (permalink)
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J12 thoughts. GO

I think i'm going to bite the bullet and start saving for a CCM.

S series is outta the question. i hate the looks of them.

so i'm in to the t2 or j12 debate. go
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Old December 4th, 2012, 02:56 PM   #2 (permalink)
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J12 is the one that comes with a kit, right? If so, great idea, i applaud them for finally accepting what everyone who plays pump knows...you really need a kit for pumps.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 03:15 PM   #3 (permalink)
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but for $760? even if you consider the kit a $200 stiffi switch that means the base price for it is $560.....
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Old December 4th, 2012, 04:13 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I'm getting one...excited!

Shot the T2 lots, think this will shoot nicer from what I've heard from the people that have them.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 05:22 PM   #5 (permalink)
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but for $760? even if you consider the kit a $200 stiffi switch that means the base price for it is $560.....
T2s come from ccm for 600something. what's the argument?
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Old December 4th, 2012, 05:40 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Want.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 05:53 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I just ordered my R7 with Magnum Slide and slam changer....SS style...now I have to sell a few more to pay for this lol...can't wait!!
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Old December 4th, 2012, 06:20 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Wow i have shot the t2 and most of the s series but i can not say anything bad about the j12 since i dont know anything about it, never had one in my hands. I can say i really like the bob long mvp it has a smaller body with one sick pump
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Old December 4th, 2012, 06:35 PM   #9 (permalink)
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T2s come from ccm for 600something. what's the argument?
i just dont understand why some pumps are so expensive considering you are buying an extremely simple mechanical marker.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 06:40 PM   #10 (permalink)
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i just dont understand why some pumps are so expensive considering you are buying an extremely simple mechanical marker.
You're questioning the wrong thing. You SHOULD be asking why electros are so much more when boards and solenoids are what, $20?, and other components are often made to lesser standards.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 06:56 PM   #11 (permalink)
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You're questioning the wrong thing. You SHOULD be asking why electros are so much more when boards and solenoids are what, $20?,.
then why can i not buy either aftermarket for $20 or even $40 if you want to consider profit margins.

not to mention these are also 2 components pumps dont need, so why then is this pump priced with high end electros?

granted i do think many high ends are overpriced but considering the milling time involved its not all that surprising. even if you want to disregard the exterior body milling there are still a lot of parts to be milled on something like a spool valve
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Old December 4th, 2012, 07:29 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Why would aftermarket pricing be relevant when marker mfgrs are buying their boards/noids bulk straight from their respective mfgrs?

In your mind, what else justifies the cost of supposed high end electros that isn't present in a CCM or any other pricey non-E-marker? Milling? Ano? Precision-made internal parts? Last I checked, CCMs had those things, too, plus quite a bit of additional work in the shop (mechanical linkages, pump handles, rods, hammers, sears, etc.), much of which is stainless steel, that you so artfully described as "extremely simple."

Your "it isn't an E-gun" stance isn't looking particularly sound.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 09:08 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Why would aftermarket pricing be relevant when marker mfgrs are buying their boards/noids bulk straight from their respective mfgrs?

In your mind, what else justifies the cost of supposed high end electros that isn't present in a CCM or any other pricey non-E-marker? Milling? Ano? Precision-made internal parts? Last I checked, CCMs had those things, too, plus quite a bit of additional work in the shop (mechanical linkages, pump handles, rods, hammers, sears, etc.), much of which is stainless steel, that you so artfully described as "extremely simple."

Your "it isn't an E-gun" stance isn't looking particularly sound.
because if the boards and noids ARE $20, then someone should be selling them for much less than i can get them from dye.

whats not present? nothing, all those things are there but then in the same sense a lamborghini has all the same basic parts as my honda civic, wheels, engine, seats, so then why is the lambo so much more money?

how many air passage ways to a noid have to be created in a pump?
how many eye holes must be drilled out and wire passages created?
how many LPR air passageways, openings and threads must be created? How many LPRs?
how many circuit board mounts?
since a lot of pumps run closed bolt, how many detents are needed? detent holes in the body?


yes its extremely simple, spyder makes all the same components minus the usually plastic pump handle and sells it at $60 and while no im not saying something like this needs to be $60, i do understand it is higher quality than spyder i just dont see where the other $500 comes from if you want to subtract out the barrel kit at a generous $200

stainless steel rods? ok, those are either lathed down to tolerance or ordered from an outside machine shop and threaded usually, fyi, stainless is not that expensive in the large picture and rod of any metal is very simple to create, melt down your metal, cast as an ingot, roll down to size and polish. honestly its not that complicated, i do it all the time in the jewelry lab with fine metals and you can get precise down to the thousandths of an inch

hell i could take a spyder and make just about every internal part out of sterling silver at roughly $30/ounce and making rough calculations that the marker weighs 2 lbs and 1lb of that is internal parts + the $60 that spyder charges for it and that brings the total to a whopping $540, so if you want to argue that stainless is expensive, consider that you can swap out for silver and it is only $40 over the marker without barrel

so how about cockers? stainless rods? yup, sear? yup, mechanical lineages? yup can easily be turned into a pump after removing parts that came stock and even in the cheap models all these parts are there, they are the same base stacked tube design that most pumps are. so by your arguments, how on earth can cockers be so cheap?

btw, current stainless prices are a little over $700 per ton, break that down and for a generous 1lb for every marker and that comes to a very expensive $2.80 per marker
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Old December 4th, 2012, 10:01 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Uh huh...

Not in the mood for pointless bickering with someone who's probably just trolling to troll. If you don't want to buy one, don't. Just continue telling yourself that something with wires and a battery obviously costs more to make (duhhhhh), and slam other products that have the audacity to be priced anywhere near a product with eyes and solenoid mount holes. And obviously stainless doesn't require ~10x the machine time as aluminum and put ~10x the wear on bits... Oh wait, it does?

I'll just continue "overpaying" for my hobby, kthx. And ****, my cockers are worthless? Why didn't anyone tell me?! Why do I keep getting random trade offers on PBN for Luxes and Egos? Are they just pulling my leg? Huh? Things cost more and are worth more when the mfgr puts more time and care and better materials into them? What's that about? Is that why a Dragon g6r costs more than a Shocker? I mean, they both have wires and mount holes and milling, don't they?
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Old December 5th, 2012, 12:01 AM   #15 (permalink)
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so then as manufacturing time increases that must mean its free right? because pumps obviously need the same amount of milling for all the various air passageways and wires even though those parts are never placed on them and again, most companies dont manufacture the stainless steel parts, rods can be purchased in specific diameters and at most then they are bent and threaded of which this would require a bending rig which gets minimal ware as that is what it is designed to do and a tap and dye set which only has the threaded dye as an item of wear and in the diameters that paintball uses is not going to cost more than maybe $75 on the high side and again, a company like WGP also purchases and manages to produce a very similarly designed product for a fraction of the cost. and what else besides any rods and a sear (which are typically cast btw) is made of stainless and requires anything that ccm would actually "manufacture" and not buy from someone else? granted i dont know the ccm design like the back of my head but the only things that come to mind are the hammer and pins for things like the trigger and sear which again also WGP and spyder both use and both use stainless as well.

not to mention you completely avoided the question of, if cockers all have the parts that you listed as "expensive to produce" and made of stainless steel, then how is WGP able to produce a budget cocker?

as for the g6r vs the shocker, great example! shocker, produced by SP has no LPR and is also produced by a company that owned the e-marker patent therefor did not have to pay themselves usage fees(which btw is another thing the pumps dont need over an e-marker) therefore the shocker was simpler to produce and therefore cheaper

spool vs poppet though, not the best example, lets look at the etek vs the ego, both are the same design, both even have parts that can swap between the two, both have the "expensive" stainless steel rams that are difficult to produce and both have the very "cheap" solinoid and board but the milling time on the etek is much less than the milling time on the ego, granted i do think the egos are still overpriced but there is also no way to produce it with the same milling at etek prices (and make a profit anyway)

i have no interest and am not going to purchase one, im just trying to understand why they are so expensive and sofar have not found it

in reality though i doubt either of us will ever know exactly why CCM prices them where they do, its probably just a combination of things
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Old December 5th, 2012, 01:58 AM   #16 (permalink)
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because they can. end of story. if someone wanted to create a marker on a little to no margin, i'm sure the markers would high end at the 400 price point. but who wants to do things for free?
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Old December 5th, 2012, 07:54 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I just paid $1200 for my R7, not including the anno I want - $800 for a CCM is well worth it for what the gun is!
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Old December 5th, 2012, 08:19 AM   #18 (permalink)
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so then as manufacturing time increases that must mean its free right? because pumps obviously need the same amount of milling for all the various air passageways and wires even though those parts are never placed on them and again, most companies dont manufacture the stainless steel parts, rods can be purchased in specific diameters and at most then they are bent and threaded of which this would require a bending rig which gets minimal ware as that is what it is designed to do and a tap and dye set which only has the threaded dye as an item of wear and in the diameters that paintball uses is not going to cost more than maybe $75 on the high side and again, a company like WGP also purchases and manages to produce a very similarly designed product for a fraction of the cost. and what else besides any rods and a sear (which are typically cast btw) is made of stainless and requires anything that ccm would actually "manufacture" and not buy from someone else? granted i dont know the ccm design like the back of my head but the only things that come to mind are the hammer and pins for things like the trigger and sear which again also WGP and spyder both use and both use stainless as well.

not to mention you completely avoided the question of, if cockers all have the parts that you listed as "expensive to produce" and made of stainless steel, then how is WGP able to produce a budget cocker?

as for the g6r vs the shocker, great example! shocker, produced by SP has no LPR and is also produced by a company that owned the e-marker patent therefor did not have to pay themselves usage fees(which btw is another thing the pumps dont need over an e-marker) therefore the shocker was simpler to produce and therefore cheaper

spool vs poppet though, not the best example, lets look at the etek vs the ego, both are the same design, both even have parts that can swap between the two, both have the "expensive" stainless steel rams that are difficult to produce and both have the very "cheap" solinoid and board but the milling time on the etek is much less than the milling time on the ego, granted i do think the egos are still overpriced but there is also no way to produce it with the same milling at etek prices (and make a profit anyway)

i have no interest and am not going to purchase one, im just trying to understand why they are so expensive and sofar have not found it

in reality though i doubt either of us will ever know exactly why CCM prices them where they do, its probably just a combination of things
blah blah blah blah blah.

good to know an LPR and e-marker patent licensing is all that separates SP markers and anyone else's.

as for the noids and boards you keep circling back to, it may cost YOU $50 or $60 for one at retail pricing - but Dye, PE, etc. are ordering them by the thousands direct from the mfgr...

and the question i "avoided" answering: 'how is WGP able to produce a budget 'cocker?' That's the easiest one of all: obviously they can't.

finally, i'm sure CCM has logical maths behind their pricing that factor in overhead, materials, machine time, machine bit wear, anodizing, and a percentage of profit margin. i'm equally sure that they aren't about to reveal their accounting process to you.

on a side note, with regard to PE, are their markers even milled, or are they just extruded? i thought it was the latter.
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Old December 5th, 2012, 08:21 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Extruded! Hand making each gun adds to the cost!
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Old December 5th, 2012, 10:01 AM   #20 (permalink)
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because they can. end of story. if someone wanted to create a marker on a little to no margin, i'm sure the markers would high end at the 400 price point. but who wants to do things for free?
This.
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