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**crustybug** · January 10th, 05:22 PM

i will probably eventually buy one as well. THE TANKS DO NOT EXPLODE. The only way the tank will explode is if the tank is thrown into an actual fire. first, propane in the tank is at an almost steady 0 PSI, so you cant throw it and hope it just blows into pieces, slaughtering the other team. Second, like torch said, your skin cannot and will not be permanently burned into the side of the gun. It is a giant heat sink, yes, but the ignition is so fast, that the body doesnt have enough time to heat up, especially with only having 4 b.p.s. The gun is perfectly safe. I use the tanks for my coleman heater in my ice shanty. no, it hasnt exploded, shredding my face into sausage meat.....that would be crazy.......

**sNoW PIrAnHa** · January 10th, 05:26 PM

Even though the gun itself isn't explosive a tank leak combined with an open fire is a bad combination.

The high ROF point that I was making is that it won't be seen in tournament paintball anytime soon.

And to the dude above me- the tanks are kept at pressures above 100 PSI.

Torch · January 10th, 05:41 PM

Right, Snow.
It might never be seen at tournament level. The E-volt might make it someday, since its a different solution and a different problem (weight of batteys and shots per charge, and possibly size, rof, and weight of the gun).

When I first saw it a few months ago I thought "awesome, make it smaller and faster. It's on the edge of changing everything. Big air tanks could disappear without a loss of shots." I think I've calmed down to the point where it's just a cool toy. I'd get one and use it every now and then.

I oughta change my other post, but hell with it. If you have someone who takes it apart without knowing what they're doing...which is common in paintball...then I would worry about using it. I'd also worry about people working on their own high-pressure equipment, like fooling with a tank's valve or regulator.

Crusty, vapor pressure of propane is like 130-something PSI.
0 PSI is below atmospheric pressure...if you had that it would be a vacuum and air would rush into the tank when you shot.

HirohitoKami · January 11th, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torch

Explode from being hot? Heat doesn't cause explosions.

The only concern worth having is where it sits on the "paintball gun / fire arm" line.

1. not to be a jerk, but heat/pressure does cause explosions...enter the diesle*sp* engine.

2. Can someone check the legal definition of a firearm plz. An "Explosive Propellant" is kind of vague. Does the propellant have to denaturize as in a standard firearm/C3 or does the gas simply have to "expand explosively" in the chamber? Consider the small differences between the C3 and a black powder musket, in basic opperation. The line is getting blurry lol.

For the record, I think it's great to see a genuinely new concept being introduced, although the price seems a little high for a pump gun, regardless of opperation.

*edit* btw i meant denaturize as in change chemical structure/components... not atomically denature into plasma/sub-atomic soup lollerpops.

**mLuH** · January 11th, 01:45 AM

i dont know if it has been stated already, but, if everyone in an indoor arena was shooting propane, wouldnt that make the place at high risk to become flammable? i dont believe the whole 16 oz for 50,000 shots, that seems way too high...plus i hate the smell of propane, so i wouldnt use it

***MedicDVG*** · January 11th, 02:44 AM

The products of combustion of propane are water and carbon dioxide. So no, a ton of people all shooting propane markers would not "make the whole place flammable."

Now, for more on the discussion on what is a firearm and what isn't. I have been researching The US Code of Federal Register, and other law related information. So far, I am not finding a concrete definition of what a fire arm actually is:

For instance from the United States Sentancing Guidelines: (I added the bold type to highlight my point)

"For the applicable definition of firearm, we look to the application notes found in the commentary to U.S.S.G. sec. 1B1.1. See U.S.S.G. sec. 2B3.1, comment. (n.1). As defined in the commentary to section 1B1.1, firearm means

(i) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; (ii) the frame or receiver of any such weapon; (iii) any firearm muffler or silencer; or (iv) any destructive device. A weapon, commonly known as a "BB" or pellet gun, that uses air or carbon dioxide pressure to expel a projectile is a dangerous weapon but not a firearm."

---

So on one hand we have the legal eagles defining CO2 powered pellet guns as "dangerous weapons but NOT a firearm." Yet, the definition here of "expelling a projectile by the action of an explosive" can be applied to the new C3 due to the fact that is is using the explosive energy of ignited propane. The only caveat would be if propane is not considered as an "explosive propellant" per this defintion.

Apparently the US CFR reference for firearms definitions are found in 18 U.S.C. sec. 921(a)(3) which states:

"The term ``firearm'' means (A) any weapon (including a starter
gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a
projectile by the action of an explosive; (B) the frame or receiver of
any such weapon; (C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or (D) any
destructive device."

Just what does this mean -- you tell me. The USC definition now begs the question of wether a paintball marker can be considered a weapon. No wonder lawyers make the big bucks, there is no way to understand all this stuff without one. But yet I trudge on in the legal quagmires....

---

However, then we have some state and local law that seems to contradict the USC laws (This one from Riverside California). Now we get into issues of which law has precidence National or State/Local:

Section 9.12.010 Definition of firearm.

In this chapter, "firearm" means a gun, pistol, rifle, air rifle or air gun, b-b gun, arrow, crossbow, or any other instrument of any kind, character or description which throws or projects a bullet or missile or substance by means of elastic force, air, or explosive substance likely to cause bodily harm. (Ord. 6423 § 1, 1998; prior code § 35.1)

The only saving grace I can see from this law/ordinance is that a paintball maker is not designed to "likely cause bodliy harm." Again, though, it can be argued both ways.

-----

Then I looked to a more general definition of firearm --
From Wikipedia:

"A firearm is a kinetic energy mechanical device that fires either single or multiple projectiles propelled at high velocity by the gases produced through rapid, confined burning of a propellant. This process of rapid burning is technically known as deflagration."

By this definition, we are walking a very thin line as to wether or not a marker propelling a ball by the "rapid confined burning of a propellant" is a firearm or not.

----

So is the C3 using an "explosive" as a means of propellent? It seems so at first blush. If this is indeed the case, then according to what I can see from national law, then this paintball marker is indeed a firearm.

As a result, if this paintball marker is indeed now a firearm, then there are a whole host of legal and ethical issues that will crop up to plauge our sport.

***prodigy911*** · January 11th, 05:23 PM

I was reading that it can only fire 4 bps without it over heating and all.

**mLuH** · January 11th, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prodigy911

I was reading that it can only fire 4 bps without it over heating and all.

lmao is that true? thats terrible. if it is true, there goes propane in paintball

except for pumps

**crustybug** · January 11th, 08:57 PM

ok, even if it does have 130 psi, its still not enough to cause serious damage, like a c02 tank would. Personally, i believe this is safer than using co2 in my opinion. Who plays paintball around an open flame anyways?? the tank will only leak if you are retarded.

**PaintBallBryan** · January 11th, 09:14 PM

the thing isnt about the saftey of it. its about what the propane will make the marker be defined as. if everybody straps on a propane tank and shoots eachother..its no longer a recreational activity of paintball, it becomes something dangerous. i think propane is defined as an explosive propelent. and if that ****ed up i mean the velocity could spike way high and mess up your gun.

**mLuH** · January 11th, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crustybug

ok, even if it does have 130 psi, its still not enough to cause serious damage, like a c02 tank would. Personally, i believe this is safer than using co2 in my opinion. Who plays paintball around an open flame anyways?? the tank will only leak if you are retarded.

ever heard of a co2 disk breaking for no reason and letting out co2? plus paintball isnt exactly the most gentle sport, with people running/diving

***darkdragon*** · January 11th, 10:36 PM

Yes well there are seals that keep it in place right? If someone doesnt replace or properly keep these seals in condition what are the possibilities (I know they are dumb for using the gun if they arent going to take care of it.) But there are unbright people out there. If the release is pressed on the tank gas is flowing. If there is a spark there is combustion. If the seal blocking the tank from the combustion chamber is damaged the flame has a path to the tank. If the propane ignites in the tank? Well I dont want to be there................. again as I stated they DO NOT use propane in actuall firearms for a reason....... If the valve seal on a stove is damaged it can and will ignite the system causing fire and harm.......... everything is based on RESPONSIBLE people and we all know not everyone is responsible. I dont want to be there with an irresponsible person.......

Deutche · January 11th, 10:55 PM

an easy way to answer the question of whether it qualifies as a firearm seems that if you have to go through say the backround checks and such required for purchasing a normal firearm when you buy it. if you dont then its either not a firearm or the place that you bought it is dealing in illegal arms trading which means that have the cops on their ass right quick
also it seems that it could be a big step forward for woodsball and milsim players since the tanks could be small enough to place them inside the gun

Tippmann_baller · January 14th, 08:52 AM

wiht a 16 oz propain you can get 50,00 shots off before you need to refill.Doesnt propaine explode???, and where would you refill a propaine tank, do they have propaine fill stations at most fields?

aatheodo2 · January 14th, 12:21 PM

If your paying attention it wouldnt be hard at all to notice if your tank was leaking. Propane has an odor for a reason. And if it is burned to fire the ball then there would be no odor from firing the gun.
so odor = leak
explosions are pretty much a non-issure unless you can get past the firearm laws.

Tippmann_baller · January 14th, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aatheodo2

If your paying attention it wouldnt be hard at all to notice if your tank was leaking. Propane has an odor for a reason. And if it is burned to fire the ball then there would be no odor from firing the gun.
so odor = leak
explosions are pretty much a non-issure unless you can get past the firearm laws.

......true...

Torch · January 14th, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tippmann_baller

wiht a 16 oz propain you can get 50,00 shots off before you need to refill.Doesnt propaine explode???, and where would you refill a propaine tank, do they have propaine fill stations at most fields?

Read the thread a little before you ask questions, I think we answered all of those questions.

It burns, yes. The gun ignites it to fire a paintball.
You do not refill propane tanks.