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ykwak · May 21st, 04:07 PM

If anyone remembers the old school days, tippmann had three Factory Full Auto, Non Electric, Non response trigger guns.

the VM-60, VM-68, and Tippmann Factory F/A (full auto)

here is a diagram of the Tippmann F/A

http://www.tippmannparts.com/index.c...&categoryID=77

As you can see...tippmann has NOT changed their basic engineering of their guns for over 15 years...from their first semi autos, to the a-5's, tippmann has been using the basic, Bolt, Powertube / Valve, Hammer, Hammer spring, Spring Guide, Back plate, and connecting rod configuration for many, many years.

This same style of engineering applies to their Factory full auto guns. On their Factory F/A's, one could actually TUNE the Rate of Fire with the Brass ROF Adjustment screws.

If anyone has a Factory F/A, maybe they can enlighten us on how they managed to get their Full Auto to work.

ykwak · May 21st, 04:09 PM

From what i can tell of the old school Tippmann Factory F/A, they had something called a Shock which could control the rate of fire. It appears that the Shock actually engages the top of the Hammer. It seems as if this gun had 2 sears...the trigger sear, and the Shock sear.

The shock appears to be quite ingenious and more complex than meets the eye. I can tell from the diagram that it even had pistons in it to actuate the shock sears.

XoX1de · May 21st, 07:14 PM

damn, nice find! Why they stop produce F/A guns? Just cuz it is not field legal?

The shock mechanism looks really complex, but do u thing it will fit into 98C?

pbguru · May 21st, 08:48 PM

so mort... hows it goin so far?

ykwak · May 21st, 10:19 PM

My progress on the full auto : Tippmann A-5

Ok, this was a disaster!
I have recorded this and have achieved an avg rate of 28bps. This is using 5 trials, and 1500psi of my air! (note, this is on HPA)

I have polished internals, a maddmann spring kit (red), and am using very light weight oil on the hammer assembly.

If i can lower this to 22bps, and NOT ruin my velocity, then i would be able to qev my cyclone, and have a ripper!

ykwak · May 21st, 10:20 PM

yeh, it would be great to see your progress mort. and thanks for opening this thread up.

**Mortisdeum** · May 22nd, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XoX1de

damn, nice find! Why they stop produce F/A guns? Just cuz it is not field legal?

The shock mechanism looks really complex, but do u thing it will fit into 98C?

Basicly the uper 2 sears acted as breaks so slow things down (Still trying to figure it out from the drawings and would love to see one in person)

with some reworking yes it will fit in there (I would make a new hammer asembaly)

Torch · May 22nd, 02:54 AM

Adding oil filled shocks isn't stock equipment.

...cheater!

I had a video of one, I think its long gone though. It was cool to watch them move around.

ykwak · May 23rd, 09:46 PM

so good to see well known forum members checking this thread out. Maybe someone can sticky this?

I think this is a great new idea for people to put their thoughts into and try tinkering. It is an awesome mod when accomplished. I have spoken with a friend of mine who has a 98 custom running full auto mod with a qev'd cyclone. He is hitting around 21 - 22 bps according to recordings. Running HPA of course.

I have put some thought into the whole "slowing the bolt down with the shocks" idea, and still cant fully understand the operation. BUT....

STEPS OF OPERATION:
1) Trigger is pulled, and Held Down
2) Sear is lowered and Hammer is unlocked
3) Hammer spring drives the Hammer into the valve stem and pwr tube
4) valve stem decompresses and valve spring decompresses
5) gas pressure attempts to equalize b/t the tank and the gun system
6) gas is released in front of the power tube and gas is released behind the
power tube
7) paintball is propelled and hammer is forced back into its starting position
8) hammer spring is compressed, and the cycle repeats so long as the sear is
in the down position

Ok...where in this proccess does one see a possible way of controling bps???

I DO!

i think i have figured out how the shocks work on the Tippmann F/A
1) the hammer has grooves on both the top and bottom...
2) the bottom grooves are for the regular trigger sear
3) the top grooves are for the 2 sear "shock" system...and this is where the 2
sear shock system can momentarily rubs / slows the hammer
4) the shock sears are located almost directly above the trigger sear, but a
little forward...so that it can control the hammers rate of cycle really close to
the starting (compressed) position, but while the hammer is flying toward the
valve stem

- the shock system can control the bps by instantaneously "catching" or
"rubbing" against the bolt via its 2 sear shock system

- the pistons are there to control the amount of pressure acting on the sears,
and thus how long the shock sears can maintain static friction and
equilibrium upon the hammer...probably for .05 seconds (20bps = 1 shot
every .05 sec)
oh...the factory f/a was supposed to be 20bps from factory...and then
adjustable by the user

- the location of the shock sear system above the trigger sear was important
By locating them almost above the trigger sear and a little forward, the process of momentarily slowing the hammer could be done in a position where the hammer spring is almost fully compressed and while the hammer is making its way to the valve stem - this would explain how velocity is maintained

- the brass Rate of Fire adjustment screws were there to regulate the pressure of the pistons.

- the shock had 2 sears...and both are incapable of actually holding the hammer still so that the cycle can repeat so long as the trigger sear is depressed...so they were probably rounded off at the edges...just enough to provide a high enough coefficient of friction to slow the hammer as close to its starting position as possible

- having 2 shock sears in different positions allows a better control of the bps...2 spots to momentarily "catch" the sear are better than one

Ok, enough typing. EVERYONE READ THIS, and let me know what you think of my einsteinium findings

ykwak · May 23rd, 09:46 PM

Oh, and torch. your modded sl-68 II was the reason i picked up mine : )

Keither · May 24th, 12:00 AM

Just take a piece of O ring or something thick enough to keep the trigger sear pushed forward... push the sear forward and place the O ring or what have you in the open spot on the sear.

The one problems you'll face though as someone already said, is yes, this will probably turn your gun into a spray gun / paint blender. The reason electronic markers are the only ones that come full auto stock... or with that option, is because they require the electronics to not chop balls. I've already tried this with my M98.. unless you have some spring loaded feed system like a qloader (which probably wont even be fast enough.. trust me) then you might just get a ball every time you first pull the trigger. not to mention the pressure drop off youll experience with Co2... even with compressed air though, we tried that and it still got drop off believe it or not.

I would suggest leaving the marker semi. Yes the thought of full auto is fun and just outright badass in theory, but in practice it just doesnt work using these methods.

Like i said.. spring loaded is the way to go if ur gonna do this. Id recommend a piece of PVC with some kind of spring mechanism, but that is emptied in under a second unless you find some way to slow the bolt down, like they did with the thompson SMG.

Another thing to do would to do this to an A5, seeing the cyclone wouldnt let you chop paint.. but if youre gonna get a whole new gun, why not just splurge and get an ION or something of that nature.

Try it though and see if you can come up with a successful feeding system. If you do, let me know.

-Keither

ykwak · May 24th, 12:57 AM

lol keither, thanks for the reply, but how to turn it full auto has already been established.

what we are working on here is actually controlling the rate of fire so that we can slow it down and make it practical...around the 20 - 22bps range.

and i have personally seen a 98 custom and an A-5 using this mod successfully. The tinkerer and very mechanically inclined individual who figured a good system out is still unwilling to share knowledge, unfortuantely.

XoX1de · May 24th, 04:19 PM

WonderFul!

Torch · May 24th, 05:20 PM

Ohh Spinny's reading this.

Maybe he'll crack and spill how he did it. =)

Oh and man, I'm going to bug you about an E-bolt in a week or two. Not to buy one though, just hope to get some info from you about one.

IonArmy022 · May 26th, 09:10 AM

cmon why cant they just share the wealth with everyone else so we can benefit from this as well

JH · June 14th, 10:38 PM

does anyone know if this ever worked?

**Mortisdeum** · June 15th, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roadkill20

does anyone know if this ever worked?

ya did you see the vid?

part of the trick is to use a good reg. and compressed air so that you don;t freeze the gun up.

At the moment i am working on an drop in part to control the rate of fire but my problem is the amount of space and relabity.

Yes I am hard at work on it now that finals are over for me

EDIT: On a side note do not pull the triger after you have cocked the gun in the condition it is in in the picture. Now were the **** did the valve and bolt go

EDITx2:
Found the valve landed 8+ feet from the work bench

JH · June 19th, 01:14 PM

holy crap that is friggin awesome i never thought you would slow it down enought to get it to work

**DontLookImNaked** · June 19th, 07:07 PM

do you thinka a q loader could keep up
it does 30 bps

**Mortisdeum** · June 19th, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DontLookImNaked

do you thinka a q loader could keep up
it does 30 bps

Ya it should

My tippmann seems to peak at 26 CBP (cycles per second) I have yet to fead paint in it at that speed but If i had a Q-loader or other high speed force fed hopper then i might.

Partof my problem is that the Egg I have is not force fed so the stack of paintballs gets pushed back up by the bolt (the ball only gets about 1/4 of the way in to the chamber). This is because the balls are not being forced into the chamber fast enough. So far I have yet to chop a ball.

The funny thing i discoved while messing with the numbers is that when the gun is running @ 26cps you have to get the ball in the chamber you have a time frame of about ~0.0153s (you could get a ball about 3/4 in and have it rolled by the bolt but it may get choped) every ~0.0231s. This based on the time from when the bolt starts to open the chamber to the time it starts to move back forward. So if the Hoper is feeding 26 BPS the stack would have to beable to move ~2.6mph and put the ball into a chamber with a bolt that is moving at ~3mph

Stats used in the math
Total bolt travel each cycle: ~2 inchs
Diameter of feed port: ~0.7
Diameter of pb: ~0.7