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Old July 7th, 2004, 10:26 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Titanium barrel

Hey guys, just wanted to know how many of you are interested a good titanium barrel for under $100. I'm making plans to possibly start making them, then move on to making other parts. Let me know if this interests you.
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Old July 7th, 2004, 10:41 AM   #2 (permalink)
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why is a titaniun barrel better then any other barrel?
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Old July 7th, 2004, 10:42 AM   #3 (permalink)
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any way you could make me a custom pull pin or osmething?
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Old July 7th, 2004, 10:47 AM   #4 (permalink)
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first of all wrong section

Quote:
Originally Posted by Error
why is a titaniun barrel better then any other barrel?
Because they can be made to higher tolerances and be made much smoother, like on a longbow with a ti back it'll shoot oversized paint easy and make the gun very efficient. but smootherthanglass.com has the smoothest barrels plus its got the thing you pull on and it lets broken paint out. Pretty damn awesome.
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Old July 7th, 2004, 10:48 AM   #5 (permalink)
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and its extremely light.
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Old July 7th, 2004, 11:11 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I was actually just trying to get a general consensus on the interests with titanium parts for a paintball marker. Just so happens that a barrel is what I might put out first. This is going to be a 1 piece barrel, then depending on how that goes we'll expand to a 2 and/or a 3 piece system. Also would be doing triggers, trigger frames, clamping feeds, and what not.
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Old July 7th, 2004, 11:15 AM   #7 (permalink)
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i'll buy a drop forward if you make one
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Old July 7th, 2004, 11:35 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Actually, titanium is not extermely light, its really pretty heavy. It weighs almost twice as much as aluminum (Ti =4507kg/m3 Al=2700kg/m3). It has a high strength to weight ratio wich makes it ideal for some things, but still too heavy for others.
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Old July 7th, 2004, 11:38 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Titanitum is actually very light exo because Performance exhaust systems for cars are made of titanium most of the time due to it's lightness and durability.............and I would buy a drop forward or maybe a trigger depending on how it looked p8ntcraze
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Old July 7th, 2004, 12:17 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I would be interested in a Spyder seer. It's probably the part most prone to wear.
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Old July 7th, 2004, 12:29 PM   #11 (permalink)
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or a sear for my fishy
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Old July 7th, 2004, 12:42 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Yeah titanium is great stuff, and something like 40% of the underground earth is made of it I would deff be interested in a complete titanium mini-cocker body, with a carbon fiber rear block.
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Old July 7th, 2004, 01:22 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoPhear
Titanitum is actually very light exo because Performance exhaust systems for cars are made of titanium most of the time due to it's lightness and durability.....

Relative to steel, yes much lighter and great for an exhaust sytem due to its capacity for heat restance.

But in my opinion is not in the same class as aluminum for weight reduction.

A titanium cocker body would be pretty cool, even as a conversation piece, but would be very heavy for a marker.....IMHO.
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Old July 7th, 2004, 03:57 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Hey Guys,
I'm working with p8ntcraze on this project.

Little intro: I am a ceramic materials engineer with a huge background in metallurgy. The majority of the projects I've been working on are rather large aircraft parts, but my buddy approached me about this and it definitely caught my attention. I went to a store with him to check out whats available and I see a huge potential in this market. The other projects are definitely larger but this one sounds like a lot of fun. My company is called Sygnus LLC and is based in NJ. www.sygnusllc.com I hope it doesn't sound like we are advertising because we are really just trying to get a feel for the market. I just want people to know we are legit. So Mods, please don't hate us.

A few responses:
Yes, Titanium is heavier than Aluminum but half the weight of steel. Titanium and aluminum have different properties so its not really a fair comparison. Steel and Titanium are much closer. Ti is considerably stronger (ie modulus of rupture and fatigue testing) than aluminum. Less prone to bending. Better heat disappation and resistance, etc.

Titanium is completely corrosion resistant whereas other metals are dependant on a coating. Titanium will NOT rust or corrode. EVER. If you ever had a titanium bike frame you will know that no matter what streams and puddles you ride in, you will never see an ounce of rust on it. The polishing on titanium is extremely smooth and it doesn't require any coatings.

Titanium is "less brittle" than most other similar metals. And it outperforms others when it comes to "static fatigue" which means that continues fatigue on titanium will not weaken it. It only breaks once the threshold is met. In most other metals, continuous fatigue on the metal will add up over time and cause rupture. This is not the case in Titanium.

So if it sounds like it is a great metal and wonderful why isn't it used in everything? Cost. It is the 4th most abundant metal on the earth but extracting it is a pain in the butt. Also, machining and manufacturing it is less forgiving then other metals. But we can do it. And we can do it for less than the big boys charge.

And as far as custom built titanium components... if you guys can generate enough interest and supply me with prints (or I can get my hands on a sample and draw prints) then I can quote it out for you. I am actually drawing up the prints for the barrels right now.

By the way, we've built some titanium exhausts for some friends. Just because we are talking about titanium please note that we deal with superalloys (usually for aircraft and industrial gas turbines), stainless steels, aluminum, nickel, brass, carbon fiber, and hi-tech ceramics. You can always contact us.

Thank you for your interest and please feel free to respond. If your questions are paintball specific you'll have to ask p8ntcraze about that. I'm just an engineer

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Old July 7th, 2004, 04:04 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Can you build a Delrin/Delron back block?
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Old July 7th, 2004, 04:15 PM   #16 (permalink)
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i might be interested in a brass barrel

why brass?

because brass is the SMOOTHEST metal around! SS is heavier and isnt as smoot has brass, aluminum just has weight going for it.

itd be a really really simple barrel actually, rod of brass milled out (accurately though, i hope) and with a few ports in the end. nothing too fancy, itd be a good practice barrel for getting into the paintball business. and i just like the whole "old school" feel to a brass barrel.

do you think you guys could do it? and do you guys know how to fit the end to screw into the gun right? and heres a tip. Rifled barrels dont work, theyve been tried countless of times, so save some time and make some smooth barrels. good luck guys!
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Old July 7th, 2004, 04:33 PM   #17 (permalink)
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A titanium barrel for under $100.00 ? Well, it's deffinately on my wish list.

A brief rundown of why titanium would be such a worth-while investment for a paintballer: When compared to steel and aluminum for advantages, it's virtually hybrid- though even better. When you consider that most two or three piece barrel systems today consist of a steel back and an aluminum front, generally about half and half. So being that titanium is somewhere between the two, it stands to reason that a similar length titanium barrel will weigh about the same (and, it stands to reason that a two-piece titanium barrel would weigh considerably less). Except, and here's the bottom line, you get more of an advantage (in regard to smoothness, friction, and durability) than you would with an all steel barrel, without the extra weight. Also, in terms of life-long reliability, it is prefferable to an aluminum barrel, even if it is not so light.

Of course, titanium can't touch the benefits of carbon fiber barrels, it also runs something like $200 for a good one.

So then- interested? You bet I am.

However, you have to be mindful that a person's attraction to any barrel system is going to rely on more than just the materials. Also important are your sellection of barrel threads, the diffirent lengths, and the cut of its gibb, so to speak. That is, the design. You want to make sure that it's something the main-stream can apperciate, but you also want to make sure it doesn't look like every other "professional style" knock-off on the two-bit market. If you want more technical or aesthetic insight on that, feel free to PM me here, or EMail me at lukeholterman(AT)hotmail(dot)com. But you probably already have plans in regards to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderDog
i might be interested in a brass barrel

why brass?

because brass is the SMOOTHEST metal around! SS is heavier and isnt as smoot has brass, aluminum just has weight going for it.

itd be a really really simple barrel actually, rod of brass milled out (accurately though, i hope) and with a few ports in the end. nothing too fancy, itd be a good practice barrel for getting into the paintball business. and i just like the whole "old school" feel to a brass barrel.

do you think you guys could do it? and do you guys know how to fit the end to screw into the gun right? and heres a tip. Rifled barrels dont work, theyve been tried countless of times, so save some time and make some smooth barrels. good luck guys!
Not... entirely true. Brass is smoother on a chemical level (lower coefficient of friction than steel or aluminum), however when you consider the extent to which many commercially available barrels are polished today, whatever advantage it gives you is even less- possibly negligable. Also, brass has other undesirable characteristics. For instance, it's softer than even aluminum, so it scratches so much easier. Which could screw up your smoothness in a jiffy, with constant use, or even just using the wrong squeegee. More annoyingly, it does begin to corrode over time, making it appear dirty or gritty, and needs to be polished to retain it's metalic shine. This makes it either very ugly, or very high maintainance. Neither of which I'd be comfortable with, personally. Also, they're already available for relatively cheap at the Palmer Pursuit website. $55, I believe, not including spiral porting and other perks.
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Old July 7th, 2004, 04:33 PM   #18 (permalink)
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A few questions as I am drawing these prints.

What is the most common size for the interior of the barrel?
Can someone explain the self cleaning mechanism for me (maybe not for this one but something to think about)?

To start off with the most common stuff I was thinking:
14" Autococker with .6875 barrel +/- .0001?
One piece.

I'm going to go with stock porting for now. No rifling as it doesn't make sense in my head that a paintball would respond well due to the viscous nature of the ball at these speeds.

As far as doing brass, its not a bad idea but I don't know if it would make financial sense. We have an edge in titanium manufacturing. Anyone can make brass. You're right its very smooth but it also chips easily. If you want brass I would have to research it a little more.

Keep the ideas coming. This is fun.
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Old July 7th, 2004, 04:41 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umair
A few questions as I am drawing these prints.

What is the most common size for the interior of the barrel?
Can someone explain the self cleaning mechanism for me (maybe not for this one but something to think about)?

To start off with the most common stuff I was thinking:
14" Autococker with .6875 barrel +/- .0001?
One piece.
most common size .687-.689 I think thats about right

I usually only see 3 digits maybe more like .687 +/-.001
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Old July 7th, 2004, 04:43 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DemoCommando
Can you build a Delrin/Delron back block?
I haven't worked with Delrin for a while but its pretty easy to machine. I just need prints!!! And I need to make more than a qty of 1 otherwise it will be too expensive.
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Old July 7th, 2004, 04:48 PM   #21 (permalink)
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A brass barrel would kick ass because that IS smooth
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Old July 7th, 2004, 04:49 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Error
most common size .687-.689 I think thats about right

I usually only see 3 digits maybe more like .687 +/-.001

My mistake. I'm used to aerospace specs.

I meant .6875 +/- .001
At least thats what I get using my equipment when I measure it.
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Old July 7th, 2004, 04:58 PM   #23 (permalink)
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id LOOOVE to have a brass barrel. anybody who can take care of brass it wont be bad. it just needs a little polish after every day of practice and after a week of inactivity and itll be perfect. ill even get crafty and make me a barrel polisher to buff the inside of the barrel with!

id buy a titainium barrel anyday if it was cheaper than a UL. im sure you could please us brass buyers by just making a couple. and if they were cheap enough, id buy one or two of diffrent bores. but the current cocker setup sounds great. i have a mag and am getting a ULE soon. so im REEAALLY interested in a cocker barrel because ill be out of a barrel for a while, and that will add more to the originality of my mag (since im a lefty and i have a warp right mag) if i had a custom barrel from you guys. your name'd get out there. just gotta look in the right places. i might convince my shop owner to get a few barrels from you. just to test em out if i get one and he likes em.

but onto branching

if you were to branch out further into paintball, id suggest hitting spyders first. Dont bother with automag threading, that is being phased out. if you did make em, you could catch a few old school ballers. once again, i might get one out of curiosity, but the problem with the mag barrels is that THEY ARE THE BREECH. so very inconvienient. id send you my stock mag barrel to let you experiment around with em, but once again, prolly not economically sound idea. for a fledgling company in paintball should keep to the mainstream gun brands. Cocker, Spyder, Shocker, and Impulse would cover most guns made. not all, but most. but i would start with Autococker barrels now. see if that flies, and then expand into other markets. you could use PBF as test subjects. and id happily voleenteer myself as one once i get a new body for my gun.

but keep us updated!
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Old July 7th, 2004, 05:03 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umair
A few questions as I am drawing these prints.

What is the most common size for the interior of the barrel?
Can someone explain the self cleaning mechanism for me (maybe not for this one but something to think about)?

To start off with the most common stuff I was thinking:
14" Autococker with .6875 barrel +/- .0001?
One piece.

I'm going to go with stock porting for now. No rifling as it doesn't make sense in my head that a paintball would respond well due to the viscous nature of the ball at these speeds.

As far as doing brass, its not a bad idea but I don't know if it would make financial sense. We have an edge in titanium manufacturing. Anyone can make brass. You're right its very smooth but it also chips easily. If you want brass I would have to research it a little more.

Keep the ideas coming. This is fun.
What is generally considered to be a "medium" sized barrel is going to be a bore size of .689-.691 . Which is an ideal size for popular medium sized paints, like PMI Premium/RP Scherer. It is also convenient because it can fire "small" paints, like Marballizers, which are also fairly popular, abeit a bit more expensive. There is a noticable loss of accuracy when using small paints in a medium or large-bore barrel, however it is prefferable to trying to fire larger paint through a smaller barrel. For this reason, most barrels out there are of the "medium bore" variety. Larger paintballs exist, but aren't as intensely popular, and large-bores suffer even worse when firing small paint sizes.

As for self-cleaning, this basically means that you haven't done anything to impede the process of shooting excess broken paint out of the barrel. The most notoriously hard to clean barrels are those that are excessively ported with small holes (which tend to get gunked up), those that are "rifled" (basically, that have either straight or curved grooves on the inside), and less conventional materials like ceramics, which although ideal in many ways, are porous and tend to retain paint in the event that a ball does break in it. Many successful "self-cleaning" barrels are ported towards the end, or have muzzle breaks. Still, the driving force to clean your barrel by firing more paintballs through it is mostly in having a decent paint match. Balls too big will simply continue breaking is there is paint in the barrel (from the added friction and reduced clearance), whereas balls that are far too small will generally not seal well enough to push the paint out the bore of the barrel, and suffer reduced accuracy until the barrel is swabbed.

In any event, there is no fool-proof self cleaning system, yet. Self-cleaning is simply a hall-mark of a well machined and designed barrel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderDog
id LOOOVE to have a brass barrel. anybody who can take care of brass it wont be bad. it just needs a little polish after every day of practice and after a week of inactivity and itll be perfect. ill even get crafty and make me a barrel polisher to buff the inside of the barrel with!

id buy a titainium barrel anyday if it was cheaper than a UL. im sure you could please us brass buyers by just making a couple. and if they were cheap enough, id buy one or two of diffrent bores. but the current cocker setup sounds great. i have a mag and am getting a ULE soon. so im REEAALLY interested in a cocker barrel because ill be out of a barrel for a while, and that will add more to the originality of my mag (since im a lefty and i have a warp right mag) if i had a custom barrel from you guys. your name'd get out there. just gotta look in the right places. i might convince my shop owner to get a few barrels from you. just to test em out if i get one and he likes em.

but onto branching

if you were to branch out further into paintball, id suggest hitting spyders first. Dont bother with automag threading, that is being phased out. if you did make em, you could catch a few old school ballers. once again, i might get one out of curiosity, but the problem with the mag barrels is that THEY ARE THE BREECH. so very inconvienient. id send you my stock mag barrel to let you experiment around with em, but once again, prolly not economically sound idea. for a fledgling company in paintball should keep to the mainstream gun brands. Cocker, Spyder, Shocker, and Impulse would cover most guns made. not all, but most. but i would start with Autococker barrels now. see if that flies, and then expand into other markets. you could use PBF as test subjects. and id happily voleenteer myself as one once i get a new body for my gun.

but keep us updated!
Like I said, try Palmer's shop. $55 for a custom machined brass barrel. Personally, I think brass is just a lot of hype. There's a reason they're not mass produced any more.

Good point with the thread sizes. The first thread sizes you'd want to produce are 'cocker and 'spyder/piranha/rebel threads. However, I'm not sure about the purchasing power of most entry-level marker owners. Either way, there are certianly a lot of them, which might make up for it. 'Cocker and Spyder threads, though, are the two most commonly used, partly because many other marker manufacturers have decided to use these currently existing thread conventions, instead of making their own and limiting a buyer's customization options.
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Old July 7th, 2004, 06:53 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Thanks for all the input, I can see that there's a lot of interest in what we are doing. All inputs are more than welcome. Basically what we're making is for you guys, and input from everyday players are extremely useful. I've only tried a small handful of barrels, the stock barrel on my ir3 angel | stock barrel on an 04 vert AC | and the freak system. I know enough, though to know NOT to try and go after a flatline barrel.
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