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Old March 20th, 2005, 09:38 PM   #1 (permalink)
 
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africa genocide

kind of an old issue...but it just came to mind

(correct me if im wrong)when a country declares that genocide is occuring in a certain area, they must go in and help with resolve the problem

why is it that no one will call it genocide in africa?
i am in no way saying it is Bush's fault....im saying that it is the world's fault

everyone knows what is happening, why is no one helping????

i think it was Colon Powell that said something about it being genocide...but it was not official and it caused a big comotion

The u.s. is already have enough troubles with money, so for now, we cannot call it genocide
If another country calls it genocide i think the U.S. will follow though

ur thoughts???
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Old March 20th, 2005, 09:43 PM   #2 (permalink)
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The "genocide" issues happened during the Clinton years.
Countries like Rwanda DID declare genocide, but the UN did not want to help.
They have a rule that they "must help if someone declares genocide", so they debated what the word meant for a very long time, until the issue disappeared into a committee.

THIS is the very reason why the UN has become a completely useless organization. It no longer serves any purpose since it no longer has any power.

As for Clinton, most scholars think they he did not want to intervene because of the Somalia incident. That happened the first year in office, and after that HE NO LONGER SENT TROOPS INTO ACTIVE COMBAT ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. To say "gun shy" is an understatement.

Fortunetly, the USA does help now, but most foreign countries actually DO NOT want our help. Instead, they usually use mercs these days.

nick
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Old March 20th, 2005, 09:46 PM   #3 (permalink)
 
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wut wus the Somolia incident
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Old March 20th, 2005, 09:54 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Black Hawk Down?
People forget that it was actually a SUCESSFULL MISSION, but TV reporters showed footage of US Soldiers being dragged through the streets of Mogadishu, and Clinton pulled everyone out.
The military never forgave him for that.

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Old March 20th, 2005, 09:56 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
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ahh...gotcha..wow im dumb...i knew that
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Old March 20th, 2005, 09:56 PM   #6 (permalink)
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black hawk down was based on the incidents in somolia was it not?

*edit* I must type slow...
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Old March 20th, 2005, 10:07 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP_lovecraft

THIS is the very reason why the UN has become a completely useless organization. It no longer serves any purpose since it no longer has any power.

WoW..... One of the very few smart ones left in the world . It was kinda the same way in Iraq..... The UN wouldnt do a thing to help, but Bush knew what needed to be done.
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Old March 20th, 2005, 10:17 PM   #8 (permalink)
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actually there was a movie on the rwanda genocide on last night on hbo, if you're interested it was on some time between 8-11 (i lost track of time last night).

but yeah, this was the kind of issue the UN was MADE for. But as hp put it, they really didnt do much to help at all, and as a result, millions of people are dead.

as for clintons indecision militarily...its a joke. He was a media whore, and let them influence his decisions too much.
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Old March 20th, 2005, 10:29 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HP_lovecraft
Black Hawk Down?
People forget that it was actually a SUCESSFULL MISSION, but TV reporters showed footage of US Soldiers being dragged through the streets of Mogadishu, and Clinton pulled everyone out.
The military never forgave him for that.

Nick

I remember when I went to see that movie in the theaters, and on the way home I heard a never ending stream of curse words directed at Clinton from my dad seeing as how we was active duty at the time.

What many people donít realize about the Somalia incident is that everything could have happened with little or no casualties if the Clinton administration had allowed any Armor into Somalia. For those of you that have see the movie, you saw that the guys in the Humvee's were pretty much getting ripped to pieces. If APC's were allowed, the number of men killed/wounded would have been very low.
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Old March 20th, 2005, 10:37 PM   #10 (permalink)
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i watched a documentary ont he rwanda genocide. my school has a club called METMUNC (metropolitan united nations committee) its a model UN and theres conferences in different schools, in the actual un too. anyway, we all watched a movie about the rwanda genocide. at first i thought it was going to be boring, but it was very interesting. it was also very brutal and disgusting. if you dont know what it is, these african extremists organized themselves and their leader told them over the radio to kill this group of people called the 'tutsis'. they went into villages, towns, cities killing anyone. the documentary focused on this one village, where the tutsis and this other group both lived together before the genocide, then when the radio announcement came, they were all killed. this one girl happened to survive. she said that they went into the village, killed everyone, then came back the next day and sliced everyone apart to make sure they killed everyone. and the sick part was after the genocide was stopped, they all went back living normally again as neighbors. they interviewed people who killed these tutsis and they said they regret it and did it because they were so persuaded to.
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Old March 20th, 2005, 11:28 PM   #11 (permalink)
 
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my african/asian studies teacher wanted us to see rwanda....i completely forgot about it until now
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Old March 21st, 2005, 06:43 AM   #12 (permalink)
 
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Black hawk down is one of the best movies ever made.

If people actualy took the time to sit down and watch it a couple times, and actually see what happened,they would not see it as just another retarded Hollywood, popcorn munching, feel good, action movie.


(not to mention the great camera work, and directing by Ridley Scott.)
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Old March 21st, 2005, 06:43 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chromekilla
If APC's were allowed, the number of men killed/wounded would have been very low.
The reason being that APCs "look bad" on TV. The mission was supposed to be secret, and Somalia was full of reporters.
I suppose that is a legitimate reason, but he also forbid those gunships. What were they called? They could have made a MASSIVE difference.

BTW, for those who liked the movie, I'd suggest buying the book. There was ALOT of interesting stuff that happened that didn't make it into the movie because of time constrants. Or.... at least get the "Special Edition" DVD. It has 2 FANTASTIC documentaries on it.

Nick
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Old March 21st, 2005, 08:46 AM   #14 (permalink)
 
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No one is prepared to send in a large military force into Africa as their is no way to profit from it.

So far, it looks like everyone will let the African People, or a large portion of them, whipe themselves off the face of this earth.
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Old March 21st, 2005, 10:49 AM   #15 (permalink)
 
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go see Hotel Rwanda. Its one of the most moving movies i have ever seen. It follows a family trying to survive the genocide.
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Old March 21st, 2005, 11:21 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Magnum
No one is prepared to send in a large military force into Africa as their is no way to profit from it.
As opposed too?
Bosnia, Afganistan and Iraq have all been money pits.
The only people who made money were 3rd party contractors, who make money WHEREVER they go.

The primary problem in Africa is most of the countries are run by authoritarian dictators, who are fighting some group of rebels, run by someone who WANTS to be the authoritarian dictator.

The basic problem is WHO DO YOU HELP? If you stop one WARLORD, it only makes the other WARLORD more powerfull. This is why the ONLY succesfull ways of helping have been for the warlord to hire mercenaries, since they have no obligation to "do the right thing".

Now, I'm sure some will say "Well, Iraq has oil.....africa does not". Any??
We have YET to steal ONE DROP of oil from Iraq, but even if your premise is that there is nothing worth stealing in Africa, you have forgotten the NUMBER ONE REASON there is fighting in the first place:
GOLD AND DIAMONDS. They have given the warlords the wealth need to BUY WEAPONS and SOLDIERS to do the evil things they do.

There is certaintly "profit" as you put it.... but HOW do you help.

Nick
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Old March 21st, 2005, 01:27 PM   #17 (permalink)
 
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yeah you guys all have a point black hawk down was a great movie, but why doesn't someone help then? I mean if there is 2 parties fighting to be "authoritarian dictator" why not just get rid of the people running the country like idiots, and make sure the other party doesn't come up... set up a proper government, but this might result like iraq but still they didn't know about iraq back then so why didn't they do it?
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Old March 21st, 2005, 01:33 PM   #18 (permalink)
 
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The UN is pointless. African genocide is being handled by PMCs and Mercs. Look at Sierra Leone, for instance. The PMCs dominated that place.
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Old March 21st, 2005, 01:52 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Look at Sierra Leone, for instance. The PMCs dominated that place.
They did.... until the UN kicked them out. PMC's (the nice name for "Merc") SCARES THE CRAP out of the UN since they have ABSOLUTELY NO CONTROL over them. They are not bound by any country or international law.

Which is probobly why 1/3rd of our "Coalition" in IRAQ is PMC's.

-Nick
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Old March 21st, 2005, 01:57 PM   #20 (permalink)
 
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They did.... until the UN kicked them out. PMC's (the nice name for "Merc") SCARES THE CRAP out of the UN since they have ABSOLUTELY NO CONTROL over them. They are not bound by any country or international law.

Which is probobly why 1/3rd of our "Coalition" in IRAQ is PMC's.

-Nick
That's why the UN sucks. They don't step in, but when someone else does, they freak out over not having control.
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Old March 21st, 2005, 02:50 PM   #21 (permalink)
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WoW..... One of the very few smart ones left in the world . It was kinda the same way in Iraq..... The UN wouldnt do a thing to help, but Bush knew what needed to be done.
Saddam gasses the kurds in 86, killing 20,000.

In the course of his life, he kills over a million innocent people.

Iraq doesn't let UN inspectors inspect all teh facilities.

UN: (In the most pansiest voice you can think of) Well okay we'll go away now ahhhhhh.

The US tells Saddam to stfu. He doesn't. Instead he challenges bush to a debate.

Instead, we **** their military up teh ass, fix up the country, and get saddam out.

And we've done a bad thing And the UN did the right thing by pussing out?

The UN is a bunch of flower hugging pansies that sit around a table. Except they waste money, have a flag, adn have huge buildings so it looks cool. Kinda reminds me of the french club at my school.

I dont care what authority your from, as long as your doing the right thing, then I don't care what kind of flag you have on your uniform or the color of your helmet. The point is, what's good is good, adn what's bad is bad. Sure theres different cultures, but you can't rape babies, and bust into a church and kill everyone in there.

Live how you want to live and do what you want to do, just don't hurt other people in the process.

The UN seems to forget that the world is ****ed up and needs some major guidance, and countries can't agree on anything anymore so someone needs to step up and take the leadership position. But most of the world juts doesn't like it becuase they think Bush is bad (in turn they think he's bad becuase of bad coverage by the media).

That's what it all boils down to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick
What were they called?
AC-130 Spectre gunships. M61's, L60, GAU-12, Howitzer, and an M102. Imagine a rain of fire. Now imagine it coming form a 4-propped aircraft.

I got to see oen close up at an airshow when I was real little. Very cool aircraft.

Another problem in Somalia that was told in the book was that lot of the soldiers were using tungsten tipped bullets which were more suited for piercing armor. While they probably worked well when shootign through tin (a lot of the roofs and houses were tin roof and walled), and maybe even through walls, theres a part in the book I'll never ever forget.. One guy was using an M14 rifle, and I think there was a guy with a 16A2 next to him. Bowden wrote that the guy with the M16 put 5 or 6 shots in one guy and he would still be moving, while the guy with the M14 was dropping them like flies.

IT wasn't the Delta Sniper who recieved the Medal of honor for protecting mike durant.. It was a ranger.

I loved that book, adn the movie. I own all versians of the movie and the book. I've seen the movie maybe 20 times. Read the book twice. Only book that was out of school that I've read since I was 12. Granted a lot of it had to be filled in becuase I'm sure the whole story wasn't told (since there were tons of brave men that never came back from Operation Red Dawn), it was still great.

We ended continuing genocide in Iraq, now I just want to see it be ended in other parts of the world. But not entirely by the US Military. ITs only fair that some of our taxmoney goes to this country, adn we take care of our own streets, adn get the gang scum out of our cities, and the homeless people into houses and the jobless get jobs. WE need to do all this before we go around to the rest of the world, but I suppose its all just targets of oppurtunity as bush put it.

Its true that we haven't had a military attack in 50 years, and almost 100 years before that, and no foreign army has set foot here in almost 200 years. So its okay that our military be used to protect and serve the rest of the world (The Tsunami, Somalia, etc), but we shouldn't be pouring too much into the military. But on the other hand we're at war adn I want all the men adn women over there fighting for freedom to be the best equipped adn best protected so they can blow those sons of *****es to hell and off my planet.
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Old March 21st, 2005, 02:52 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Ater I do my stint in the military, go special forces and basicly let American Tax dollars pay hundreds of thousands for my training, I'm thinking of going to work for PMC's. Hell, those ex-seals/rangers/delta guys are making bank over there. Sometimes well over 100k a year, where as if they stayed active duty they would only be making about 34k a year.
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Old March 21st, 2005, 02:54 PM   #23 (permalink)
 
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Ater I do my stint in the military, go special forces and basicly let American Tax dollars pay hundreds of thousands for my training, I'm thinking of going to work for PMC's. Hell, those ex-seals/rangers/delta guys are making bank over there. Sometimes well over 100k a year, where as if they stayed active duty they would only be making about 34k a year.
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Old March 21st, 2005, 02:57 PM   #24 (permalink)
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That's why the UN sucks. They don't step in, but when someone else does, they freak out over not having control.
well put
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Old March 21st, 2005, 03:06 PM   #25 (permalink)
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