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Old October 26th, 2004, 11:52 AM   #1 (permalink)
 
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Neglected thing about Iraq (good stuff)

I'm not gonna turn this into a political debate. I just want to state that there is one SOLID good thing about Iraq that really shouldn't be argued. It's not liberation, or any of those other media words and meanings.
Saddam wasn't a good person, such is true. But we really didn't need to go to war just to get him out. If we do it there, we have to do it everywhere that there's a bad leader. My homie said it the best... "Saddam is a pragmatist"

However,
The fact that we got his sons during the invasion is a DAMN GOOD thing. They're sociopaths to the truest level of the definition. The olympic training facility had manacles and racks and all that other good torture stuff.

All I gotta say is that if they took over it'd be trouble... so if anything good came out of Iraq, it's that.
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Old October 26th, 2004, 12:03 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JTUntouchable
I'm not gonna turn this into a political debate. I just want to state that there is one SOLID good thing about Iraq that really shouldn't be argued. It's not liberation, or any of those other media words and meanings.
Well, if your talking about semantics, then what we have done in Iraq IS LIBERATION by every definition of the word. There really is no debate about this. IRAQ had a brutal totalitarian dictatorship. We removed it, and replaced it with a democracy. The Iraqies hated Saddam, and wanted him removed.

Again, I don't know what definition you are going by, but what we have done follows every definition I could find on the internet. The problem is that "liberation" is a much better word then "occupy". We have also occupied iraq. But, the people who are against Iraq want to avoid ANY positive spin.... and prefer to use the tern occupy rather then liberate WHEN BOTH ARE TRUE.

However... while it is true we have liberated Iraq, it was not really with the goal of helping Iraqies. We wanted Iraq to have a democracy because the rest of the region is becoming EXTREMELY violent countries. The hope was that Iraq would be similar to Turkey, and represent a core of stability.

But this obviously has not happened. WHat is happening is that exact same thing that happened with Germany after then end of WW2. Chaos. There is a power vaccum, and everyone wants power. So, now we have iraqies killing iraqiis. This might seem strange, but remember that THERE HAS NEVER BEEN a democracy in Iraq until now. All the people know is that money=power, and power=control.

The bottom line is that Iraq is a bad place full of bad people. It will take a long time, and lots of money to fix it all.

nick
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Old October 26th, 2004, 12:15 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Old October 26th, 2004, 03:36 PM   #4 (permalink)
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lol this one got shut down quickly

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Old October 26th, 2004, 03:40 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Do you even know what Saddam did, Untouchable?
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Old October 26th, 2004, 03:45 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Old October 26th, 2004, 04:21 PM   #7 (permalink)
 
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There is the good, and there is the bad.

We must face this. As a person who has been in these torn lands of the desert. I know for one that life there is terrible. But when you bring war, it just gets worse. You can't try to blanket bad with good. Alpha, you have to recognize that.
But then again, what can we do? We're always being swayed by political figures to avert our eyes on something bad to something else.
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Old October 26th, 2004, 04:38 PM   #8 (permalink)
 
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JT does your freind know what pragmatic means? because it isnt an insult

Alpha unfortunatly most of those are of the kurds the iraqis havent come to accept us like that unfortunatly
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Old October 26th, 2004, 04:56 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Braka that gold pic looks like a fake. Look at the Marine's uniforms. One of them is wearing a regular old tan jacket. No 3-color camo and no marpat. Just tan. Those green T-shirts are not military issue. They have to wear brown t-shirts.

And that other picture has nothign to do with anything. Dude, the guy with teh cuffs is probably an insurgent. But I forgot. Those insurgents are nice little old people that came over the border. Yea, them and their cute little RPG-7's. Man I coul watch the videos of them cutting off innocent civilians heads all day!

EDIT:


MY point is.. You guys dont know anythign. All you guys know is from the media. In case you havent noticed, the media is probably THE most biased source on the planet. Nobody, not even I, can comment on what the war is like without being there.
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Old October 26th, 2004, 06:57 PM   #10 (permalink)
 
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I'm heading there supposedly soon, and I have 13 friends in Iraq. I've heard all about the situation there, and the media makes it look tons worse than it really is....and this is from soldiers on the frontlines. Hopefully if I go I'll have access to the internet, I'll tell you the TRUE story if I can. If not, I'll e-mail one of my friends there and have them tell me what it's like...and you'll see, it's NOTHING like what the media makes it look.
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Old October 26th, 2004, 07:13 PM   #11 (permalink)
 
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WooT! This is what I get for not checking this all day. When I said "It's not liberation, blah blah blah" I didn't mean that that's not what's happening in Iraq. I was just saying that the point I was making was not liberation or anything. The "liberation" and all the medias way of using language is not an uber solid thing. My point was actually defending the war for once... that it's an excellent thing that we got Saddam's kids out. I don't like sociopaths running countries. I was saying that Liberation and all the other things being pumped up by the media are relative, and a lot of people have a lot of different views. I thought for once I had one people could agree on... but I used the wrong words to set it up so I guess the rest got overlooked.... My bad.

Oh yeah, and my homie does know what pragmatic means... he wasn't saying it as an insult. If you study Saddam.. he IS a pragmatist... we weren't going for the insults... He is a bastard though along with a pragmatist

tl;dr - I messed my words up in the initial post... ignore the first paragraph of it... Saddams kids buried 6 feet under = absolute (philosophically) good thing about Iraq.

Last edited by JTUntouchable; October 26th, 2004 at 07:21 PM..
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Old October 26th, 2004, 08:24 PM   #12 (permalink)
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yea as for the news stations being biased thats totaly true and its y i almost only watch the main FOX news channel because for the most part they support bush AND give you all the info but of course kerry suprters are going to argue that FOX lies and CNN speaks da truf

well i dun car so stfu
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Old October 26th, 2004, 08:29 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastecho419
There is the good, and there is the bad.

We must face this. As a person who has been in these torn lands of the desert. I know for one that life there is terrible. But when you bring war, it just gets worse. You can't try to blanket bad with good. Alpha, you have to recognize that.
But then again, what can we do? We're always being swayed by political figures to avert our eyes on something bad to something else.
It's more like we are always blanketed with the bad. There is way more good going on in Iraq than bad, by a huge, massively huge amount. But you wouldn't even come close to thinking so according to the news and other media. Cause honestly all they care about is money, not making accurate, good news. The more outrageous a story, the more idiots will be drawn to its attention.
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Old October 26th, 2004, 08:30 PM   #14 (permalink)
 
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Yeah... ok... I must have really worded this poorly. I meant this to be a statement of one point... "It's a good thing that we got his kids." I meant to say "regardless of what people think of the rest of the things in the war... the rest of the opinions about the war.. I think it's a good thing we got his kids" The fact that we killed those sociopaths is one of the things that I feel is pretty neglected/forgot about by a lot of people.
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Old October 26th, 2004, 09:21 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Gabriot
It's more like we are always blanketed with the bad. There is way more good going on in Iraq than bad, by a huge, massively huge amount. But you wouldn't even come close to thinking so according to the news and other media. Cause honestly all they care about is money, not making accurate, good news. The more outrageous a story, the more idiots will be drawn to its attention.
AMEN. Ahmadi, your not in Iraq right now.

Its the media, and the current generation of middle aged people. For the most part, they're retards. I dont know why and I cant put my finger on it, but theres somethign about the way all the adults act around me thats funky, and no, it isn't maturity.

People are so quickly attracted to the enemy prisoners who were piled naked on top of each other. That story is almost still running on the news. But do you hear abotu the innocent american who had his head cut off? NO.

The people (or maybe the media makes the people) are more interested in a prisoner who was humiliated, then an american (not even a soldier) who had his head cut off. And trust me, the 'prisoner scandal victims' weren't kind loving people. These are insurgents that killed americans.

At least we don't beat our prisoners, starve them, and kill them off.

Nobody can say anythign about Iraq. All we know is from the media. Adn the media is gay.
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Old October 26th, 2004, 09:40 PM   #16 (permalink)
 
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pragmatic in direct sense means "one skilled in affairs", "one concerned with *practical matters"

philosophic meaning (i did a paper on John Dewey and Pragmatic Philosohy)

A good example by Dewey himself,
So a man walks around a tree and on the other side walking at the same pace in the same direction a monkey walks, without making any noise or alerting any senses. To the pragmatic man the monkey simply isn't in being it has no effect on the man whatsoever, the man knows that monkeys exist but to him this one doesn't. To the scientific or *practical* man the monkey exists even though he has no effect on him and he doesn't know that it is there, but the man acnologes it.
This is one of the 13 deffinitions it also happens to be the primary and all the others follow it more or less.

*practical is often associated with pragmatic but that is very untrue

Now then i don't see how that could be used as an insult when really it is a good thing. If you could explain your reasoning for it being an insult id be more than happy to read and acknolodge it. I allways enjoy learning other peoples philosophic veiws.
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Old October 26th, 2004, 10:54 PM   #17 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Alpha
AMEN. Ahmadi, your not in Iraq right now.

Its the media, and the current generation of middle aged people. For the most part, they're retards. I dont know why and I cant put my finger on it, but theres somethign about the way all the adults act around me thats funky, and no, it isn't maturity.

People are so quickly attracted to the enemy prisoners who were piled naked on top of each other. That story is almost still running on the news. But do you hear abotu the innocent american who had his head cut off? NO.

The people (or maybe the media makes the people) are more interested in a prisoner who was humiliated, then an american (not even a soldier) who had his head cut off. And trust me, the 'prisoner scandal victims' weren't kind loving people. These are insurgents that killed americans.

At least we don't beat our prisoners, starve them, and kill them off.

Nobody can say anythign about Iraq. All we know is from the media. Adn the media is gay.
God damnit... the whole point of this is totally missed. But since I've said it in as easy words as I could... I give up. People can't overlook something I didn't even mean the way they took it. I tried to ****ing explain it, but you guys still dont' listen. Fine, I'll stop trying to spoon feed you.

Alpha... You really need to see something. We're going to Iraq as the "good guys." We're liberating them, we're getting bad people out of power. That's why Abu Grahib was such a big deal. The "good guys" shouldn't act like that. The insurgents who hate us are expected to. What do we like hearing about... the expected things, or the things that shouldn't be happening. And in some ways (Not ALL ways... so you don't confuse what I'm saying)... the behavior that was shown in Abu Grahib is more unacceptable than a beheading. You always preach about how the soldier is the foundation of everything. I'm suprised you're not HORRIBLY offended by the fact that some people in your foundation acted in such an immature and outright STUPID way.

And masspainter... Read my posts above... we DID NOT use pragmatic as an insult. we used the FUNCTIONAL DEFINITION of the word. Saddam Hussein is a PRAGMATIST. NOT AN INSULT. He's also a bastard, sadist, and a lot of other negative adjectives... Put 2 and 2 together... Pragmatist works to define him... not in an insulting way, unless you combine it with his actions.... Jesus...

I'm so sick of this. I brought up a subject that I figured people could agree on... but you guys couldn't even look past the first paragraph to the god damn point of the post. Like I said before, I even tried to clear it up. God, get over yourselves... I know the media is biased... I know all this BS we've been spouting for the last 3+ months... But if you even put the word "media" or "liberation" somewhere in a post, everybody tries to be holier than thou about it. The point of this wasn't to be a god damn debate... But **** it... I give up on trying to talk about this war. I just voiced why I thought it was GOOD; I wanted to see what people thought about the ONE REASON I thought it was good... but all you guys did was talk about all the OTHER reasons that you think it's good, or how the media sucks, or how we dont' know anything because we're not there... all of this bull****.

I'm done preaching... I'm done with all these god damn Iraq topics... I'm done with my ****ing holier than thou speech... And if you don't understand what I was/am trying to say... Open your ****ing eyes and see that you argued against somebody supporting your views for once.
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Old October 26th, 2004, 10:58 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Not all threads will go the same way you expect them to. We udnerstand what you meant, this is what I had to say.
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Old October 26th, 2004, 11:01 PM   #19 (permalink)
 
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I respect your view, and I'm not bashing you for it. It just bugs me that nobody has even made notice to the real point that I made this. Call it frustration...
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Old October 26th, 2004, 11:03 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Alpha your post with the pictures made me laugh. Seems you forgot about the abu ghraib prison. The numerous dead innocent, unarmed people, the piles of corpses, dead ****ing children rotting in the streets from bombs that had our countrie's name on them. Now how would you like it if you saw someone from a country who destroyed your home and killed your relatives and all the people you loved. Yea you'd probably instigate violence. And people wonder why 9/11 happened.
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Old October 26th, 2004, 11:17 PM   #21 (permalink)
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MY point, piranha, is that you dont know that the streets are filled with corpses. You, I , we only know what goes on through the media, and we ALL know abotu the media. Its biased! They're going to show you what they want you to know.

I would personally rather live a life of experiencing death then a life of fear and without freedom.
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Old October 26th, 2004, 11:51 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha
MY point, piranha, is that you dont know that the streets are filled with corpses. You, I , we only know what goes on through the media, and we ALL know abotu the media. Its biased! They're going to show you what they want you to know.

I would personally rather live a life of experiencing death then a life of fear and without freedom.
Freedom is what you make it. I'm free to go outside but I choose to stay inside. You don't know what goes on the streets either. By those pictures I can definitely tell you are biased on the situation, you're showing half the information when there's really a whole other side.
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Old October 27th, 2004, 12:01 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by sNoW PIrAnHa
Freedom is what you make it.
no it isnt. freedom is given to you. sure you are 'free' to live how you want, until you get killed, executed, fed to lions, watch your wife and children totured to death and raped, get killed by chemical weapons by a leader that tests weapons on his own people, etcetera etcetera etcetera....

yea saddam did all that and more to his people.


you look into the faces of the thousands of wives, husbands, children, and relatives of those lost in 9/11, and the faces of those relatives of the civilians who were beheaded, burned, dragged through the streets, and hung in efficy, and tell them that we are wrong to be fighting terrorism, then you have some credibility to speak.

i understand the risk that is carried by the soldiers in iraq. i have very dear and close friends that enlisted right out of high school and are overseas as we speak. i pray for them and for their safety and for them to return home safely. however, i believe we are fighting a just fight, and must continue to do so.
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Old October 27th, 2004, 12:55 AM   #24 (permalink)
 
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We can also look into the faces of the people who are related/knew innocents in Iraq that have died because of the war. I think it's right to fight terrorism... but I think Osama was more of a threat to us in a terrorist way than Saddam was/is. If we were fighting terrorism... we'd go after people instead of countries. Terrorism is abstract. Terrorist cells is what makes it so efficent... we can wipe out Afghanistan, and Iraq... and we still won't put much of a dent in it. Terrorists don't seem to operate under a flag... we just rock whatever country they're in at the time. I dunno... the way we're doing it now is the most efficent way we can do it... but what we really need to do is try to find a better way to combat terrorism itself... Tall request, I know... but it'd be nice if it could happen. Terrorists are all over the world.. not just in Afghanistan and Iraq.
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Old October 27th, 2004, 07:08 AM   #25 (permalink)
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If we were fighting terrorism... we'd go after people instead of countries. Terrorism is abstract. Terrorist cells is what makes it so efficent... we can wipe out Afghanistan, and Iraq... and we still won't put much of a dent in it. Terrorists don't seem to operate under a flag... we just rock whatever country they're in at the time. .
I think this sums up the war on terrorism very elagantly. Bush said something similar in his infamous "we may never win" since terrorists don't follow political dogma, you may never wipe out ever last man. You can not simply kill the terrorists, but must destory the infrastructure that is creating them.

Osama is definetly a greater immediate threat then Saddam, but it is harder to compare the two. Osama is a terrorist, and Saddam is FUNDING the terrorists.
The scary part about that is that Saddam was the RICHEST world leader in the world (by some estimates), and more then willing to attack a neighbor.

If we just focused on Osama, then we would certaintly loose the war on terrorism, since it is a global battle. The whole middle-east has turned into breeding grounds for hate. If Osama dies, then he will be easily replaced. If Saddam died, he will not, and there is hope that Iraq will become like Turkey, and STOP producing terrorists.
Not likely. Iraq will probobly become like Iran, and we will be worse then we started.... but.... we can not see the future.

Nick
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