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Old September 6th, 2012, 07:58 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Buddy needs help

One of my buddies i grew up with has been playing for around 4 years and needs a gun that shoots better than his
He says he needs a "speedball gun" he has 300 for a hopper and a gun
I told him i would sell him one of my revolutions and all he needs is a gun any suggestions
He only will buy new
Azodin blitz
Spyder fenix
Gog envy
Gog extcy
Pmr
Mini
Proton
Aura
Any other suggestions would help
The gun would be a upgrade to his alpha black
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Old September 6th, 2012, 12:28 PM   #2 (permalink)
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the blitz and fenix would be upgrades but only because the bolt on bits are better, as a base platform the mechanical side of those will not be any better than his alpha black

Id avoid the Gog markers

rail, mini, proton, aura are all great options. proton/aura will have the disadvantage of not being able to move or change the ASA but will be a hoseless design, rail is a more traditional setup being able to change out the ASA/reg/macro line if he wanted to but is a hosed design

personally i would take the proton, aura and rail over the mini
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Old September 6th, 2012, 01:02 PM   #3 (permalink)
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He is likes the blitz and the envy
I talked him into the blitz
His brother has a vibe and he really likes it
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Old September 6th, 2012, 01:03 PM   #4 (permalink)
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the vibe is a fantastic little marker, but gog is a shady, shady company.
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Old September 6th, 2012, 01:22 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I'm a huge huge fan of my Reflex Rail. The break-down and maintenance is simplistic, cocker threads allow me to go back and forth between stock and barrel kit, feed neck fits my Rotor beautifully, and its small and compact (I like playing "tight").


Now - had I not been getting a field sub. and paint/entry discounts with the purchase...and after looking at the physical composition of the Rail vs. Reflex Rail... I'd have bought the Rail.

There are 2-3 main o-rings to watch and replace when you have issues. The engine in the rear of the marker is 11ish lubrication points, 3 total metal pieces - all of which screw together. While its a step back from my Etek3...I'm willing to accept the sacrifice until I pick up a new, dual regulated spool valve....or find a Critical Quest that I can justify spending $200-350 on.

....guess I just like the spoolie.
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Old September 6th, 2012, 01:50 PM   #6 (permalink)
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why are there no good mid-level poppits?
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Old September 6th, 2012, 02:05 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Guess the question to be asked here is - what would designate a mid-level poppet?


From the spool side - its gotta be single regulated and a fully EP marker. Would have to include eyes, be pretty light weight, have an on/off ASA and a board that supports current tournament firing modes. All this within a $300-500 price point (for quality product).


Maybe its me just being ignorant to what all is out there - but to my knowledge - the ETEK has infiltrated that price point with 2 regulators...almost nullifying the "mid range" concept for EP's...

So - do we sub classify Spoolies and Poppets as having their own Low/Mid/High end? Is there a low-end spool currently in production?


I'm beginning to think that we've run into a situation where classifications don't meet the product variety....to which:

1)We sub-classify based on valve type - where we either only offer low/high level spools and low/mid/high poppet assessments

2)We remove the middle class idea from our assessment of markers and mesh ETEK as an Ego JR...a bargain high end marker..

3)We classify the ETEK as a mid-range poppet...(though it doesn't make sense to do so, as the differences between an EGO and ETEK are far too minimal to consider them to be out of each others respective leagues)


thoughts?
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Old September 6th, 2012, 02:08 PM   #8 (permalink)
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the fusion would be mid-level then i suppose since it's a FASOR, but you're right.

so allow me to rephrase this question:

Why are there no low-cost poppit markers? Seems the entry level is dominated my spoolies
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Old September 6th, 2012, 02:29 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Kaos, Model 98 Pro, Blitz, Pilot, US Army, BT4...all poppets under $200, the Kaos is under $100
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Old September 6th, 2012, 04:27 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by martix_agent View Post
why are there no good mid-level poppits?
thats a really good question, it would have to be a FASOR but you would think there would not be anything from a production side that would be majorly different from creating a unbalances spool. single regulated, 2 way noid, single tube

strange


Quote:
Originally Posted by dprimmy View Post
Guess the question to be asked here is - what would designate a mid-level poppet?


From the spool side - its gotta be single regulated and a fully EP marker. Would have to include eyes, be pretty light weight, have an on/off ASA and a board that supports current tournament firing modes. All this within a $300-500 price point (for quality product).


Maybe its me just being ignorant to what all is out there - but to my knowledge - the ETEK has infiltrated that price point with 2 regulators...almost nullifying the "mid range" concept for EP's...

So - do we sub classify Spoolies and Poppets as having their own Low/Mid/High end? Is there a low-end spool currently in production?


I'm beginning to think that we've run into a situation where classifications don't meet the product variety....to which:

1)We sub-classify based on valve type - where we either only offer low/high level spools and low/mid/high poppet assessments

2)We remove the middle class idea from our assessment of markers and mesh ETEK as an Ego JR...a bargain high end marker..

3)We classify the ETEK as a mid-range poppet...(though it doesn't make sense to do so, as the differences between an EGO and ETEK are far too minimal to consider them to be out of each others respective leagues)


thoughts?

heres the way i classify and at least to me it makes a lot of sense because with the exception of a few gray areas (like cocers and automags) everything in production fits into one category quite clearly and it is not subject to opinions



entry level - sear trippers, does not matter if it is regulated or not, an e-marker or not, if it has a sear it is in here

mid range - single regulated, 2 way noid (unbalanced spools, FASORs)

high end - duel regulated, 4 way noid (EP poppets and balanced spools) the shockers are the only exception to this class as they are single regulated 4-way noids but still a balanced spool
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Old September 6th, 2012, 04:31 PM   #11 (permalink)
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which would put AxE and Mini in the mid-range...wouldn't it? Air-rammed poppets - single regulated with a noid but no LPR to speak of?
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Old September 6th, 2012, 04:39 PM   #12 (permalink)
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yes. they have a 2-way noid and no LPR
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Old September 6th, 2012, 05:14 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Alien invasion is at mid level price but is easily as nice as egos
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Old September 6th, 2012, 05:28 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Alien invasion is at mid level price but is easily as nice as egos
as nice in who's opinion? and see thats the reason why i feel that you can not make a list of entry/mid/high based on opinion, everyone feels some markers are higher or lower performance than someone else. there are probably tons of teens just getting into paintball that would list something like the tippmann X7 as "high end" when in reality it uses the same guts that the 98 uses

in the alien invasion case, both it and the egos use the same technology. price plays no roll in where a marker lands entry/mid/high. I could gold plate a brass eagle and sell it for $2000 but that doesnt mean it operates any differently than it did before
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Old September 6th, 2012, 05:31 PM   #15 (permalink)
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high end - duel* regulated, 4 way noid (EP poppets and balanced spools) the shockers are the only exception to this class as they are single regulated 4-way noids but still a balanced spool
*-dual.

Also there are unbalanced spools in the high end. The Demon is an unbalanced spool. And no argument can be made that it doesn't belong there. As smooth as a DM, yet more efficient.
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Old September 6th, 2012, 05:35 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I have had people shoot my invasion 05 ego and a 08 ego to see which people thought was the best
08 Ego weight size
Invasion really smooth for a poppet
Invasion is also quieter
And trbo i agree with that statement completly
A drone dx shoots better than a geo but its considered a mid level gun
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Old September 6th, 2012, 05:50 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Geo is in every way a midrange marker. It's nowhere near as smooth as ANYTHING in it's price range, it's got VERY bad efficiency except when compared to the G3/4/etc, Aura/Proton, Rail/Reflex Rail, and the Rogue+, and to top it off, it's not even that quiet.
ONLY reason Geo's are bought is because of PE fanboys.
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Old September 6th, 2012, 07:31 PM   #18 (permalink)
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If they were the same price etha vs geo 3
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Old September 6th, 2012, 07:42 PM   #19 (permalink)
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they'd never be the same price. but etha. *shrug*
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Old September 6th, 2012, 08:09 PM   #20 (permalink)
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*-dual.

Also there are unbalanced spools in the high end. The Demon is an unbalanced spool. And no argument can be made that it doesn't belong there. As smooth as a DM, yet more efficient.
ill argue it doesnt belong, and for this exact reason, smooth/efficient are traits you apply to a high end, someone else will apply different traits

on the same note though I would take some mid range markers over some high ends (if we are applying mid range and high end terms per my list above) Id take an NT over a shocker for instance

Just because its "mid range" does not mean its worse, yes, typically high end markers have better performance than mid range markers but again, performance according to who? the only way to create a list of entry/mid/high that is clear to everyone is to take the human element out of it

if we leave the human element in then there is no way to make a list, you have not shot every single marker out there, neither have I, so how can anyone make a complete list? Mike is probably the closest to being able to do that in this day and age but once again, he will apply different standards to markers than you will, he will like different things than you do

the only way to make a list that is clear and everyone can place markers into is to take the personal preference out of it and just look at markers from a purely mechanical standpoint.
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Old September 6th, 2012, 09:09 PM   #21 (permalink)
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ill argue it doesnt belong, and for this exact reason, smooth/efficient are traits you apply to a high end.
Then I would call you a fool for arguing that. That's like saying (using a different type of scenario) that a Nissan GT-R isn't a sports car because it shares the CPU with a family car (which it does). Name 1 trait a high end electropneumatic marker has by ANYONE's classification that the Demon doesn't have...

Smooth. Check
Efficient. Check
OLED. Check
Good warranty. Check
Comfortable. Highly personal, but check (even some people consider the Luxe comfortable IMO)
Expensive. Check (To go back to the NT or Geo since that's the only thing about them that is high end)
Internally milled. Check (obviously some don't like this, but other than PE and Dye, everyone else has decided this is what people want)
Capable of shooting far faster than you can pull your fingers. Check
Easy out drive train. Check
Good clamping feedneck. Check
Good on/off (Did anyone say ZODIAC?). Check

Being a US doesn't inherently make it not high end. Just so happens noone managed to make a proper high end marker using the unbalanced spool before, but now they have.
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Old September 7th, 2012, 12:22 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Smooth. Check
Efficient. Check
OLED. Check
Good warranty. Check
Comfortable. Highly personal, but check (even some people consider the Luxe comfortable IMO)
Expensive. Check (To go back to the NT or Geo since that's the only thing about them that is high end)
Internally milled. Check (obviously some don't like this, but other than PE and Dye, everyone else has decided this is what people want)
Capable of shooting far faster than you can pull your fingers. Check
Easy out drive train. Check
Good clamping feedneck. Check
Good on/off (Did anyone say ZODIAC?). Check
if this is the list that all high ends have to abide by then there are some major issues

where is it written that a high end must be ANY of these?

smooth? i suppose because an EP poppet is less smooth than other things that it must not be high end
efficient? DMs are out
OLED? about half the markers that are traditionally considered "high end" dont have these, out they go
Warranty? well i suppose if you dont buy a new marker then whatever you got can not be considered high end
Comfortable? i find one marker comfy, you find something else comfy, i guess nothing is high end
internally PLUMED? everything with a hose is out
high BPS? does this mean a spyder fenix is in?
easy to take apart? all spyders are in



nowhere in here am I saying high ends dont have performance and if you go back and read what im saying i also said there are mid range markers that can (in most peoples opinion) preform better than some high ends but that doesnt make the bits that make them up any different and it also leaves the classification of the marker up to an opinion rather than anything that can be measured and quantified

So if we are drawing our own lines in the sand about what fits where, then where do you stop? where do you say 1895 shots off a 68/45 is not enough but 1896 shots can be considered "efficient" and therefore high end? are you pulling out accelerometers to measure kick? how about the OLED screens? are we going to measure glare off of the screen in direct sunlight? is a 6 month warranty not good enough? how about the feednecks? if one feedneck pulls a hopper off with only 22lbs of force I suppose that would make the whole marker "mid range" wouldnt it?

if you look over at PBN they will classify the etek as a mid range marker even though it is the same design and a majority of the parts are the same between it and the ego, this is where leaving an opinion of classification into the equation falls short.

is there a difference between the performance of an ego and an etek, i would say yes. is it the same kind of difference you would find between something like a PMR and a DM, I would say hell no.

there will always be a few gray areas no matter how we classify entry mid high, take cockers for instance, one clapper noid with a sear, one 4 way noid and 2 regulators. they dont fit into anything. but classifying simply on attributes that you classify as important really falls short because everyones attribute list is different

however, as a whole I feel like the list you have of attributes is primarily what a lot of people do look for in a "high end" Also, i feel that if we place all the markers currently produced into the slots based on the criteria i set forward, AS A WHOLE, the mid range markers would have these attributes more than the entry level and the high end more than the mid range. so even though the demon does have these attributes more than SOME of the high ends, it is only 1 mid range marker. If you think of a scatter plot it would be the one dot that is hanging out somewhere on its own but that does not mean the whole mid range section gets thrown off, just that there is one odd ball
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Old September 7th, 2012, 06:35 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Ok i see where both of yal are going with this
Miller your points are a pretty basic high end gun
Trbo your point iis that it all matter on that individual person
I would say there should be some classes that they should come down to
Spool smooth, preferably balanced,(with the excpetion demon) preferably effiecient, ( luxe and shocker), decent board, on/off( zodiac), nicish feedneck, good stock barrel, good regulator(shocker)
I could take a ion and make it fit in all of these categories but would it be high end, nooo not at all
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Old September 7th, 2012, 06:35 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Ok i see where both of yal are going with this
Miller your points are a pretty basic high end gun
Trbo your point iis that it all matter on that individual person
I would say there should be some classes that they should come down to
Spool smooth, preferably balanced,(with the excpetion demon) preferably effiecient, ( luxe and shocker), decent board, on/off( zodiac), nicish feedneck, good stock barrel, good regulator(shocker)
I could take a ion and make it fit in all of these categories but would it be high end, nooo not at all
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Old September 7th, 2012, 10:31 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Trbo your point iis that it all matter on that individual person
pretty much, each person would think differently of each marker and therefore they would end up in different categories so you could not have one complete list of what is "high end" "mid range" or "entry level"

meanwhile the way I do it, it is extremely clear which marker fits where even though there are a few odd balls like the demon that have more performance than the majority of the other markers in the same category. but i feel like one or two odd balls is a much better idea than a whole world of paintballers placing markers in categories based on opinion and not one single person being able to shoot every marker out there


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I could take a ion and make it fit in all of these categories but would it be high end, nooo not at all


well see thats the thing, you could do that with an ion so again i come back to, where do you draw the line? if i make a marker that is a lot like a demon but not quite as smooth does that make it "mid range"? how many shots does a marker have to shoot to be considered "efficient"? what are the qualities that make a "good regulator"?

if i take a marker that is almost all of these qualities and then throw some aftermarket at it to make it better it must then become a "high end" because it would fit all of these never measured qualities

lets not forget, when the shoebox shocker came out it was rated to all of 500 shots on a 68/45 and that was considered "efficient" so even if we are drawing lines in the sand, all that will happen is they will have to change with time
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