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Question abouit Co2 refilling

Just got a 50# CO2 tank from a welding supply store to fill up smaller tanks with a dual valve setup. Been working on trying to fill 9oz tanks tonight. We weighed everything, and zeroed out the empty tank. Began the initial burst fill, and then bleed off that air to cool the tank, and then TRIED to fill the tank with 8oz of Co2. The kicker is that we can only get 2-3 oz in the dern thing. We have tried several times with the same results. New 50# tank and fully filled.

The Co2 tank is supposed to be siphon (as it is labled as such), but am beginning to wander if it is mislabled?

Any ideas? We have tried two 9oz tanks to see if it was a problem with them, but had the same results.

Thanks in advance for any help!:confused:
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Just got a 50# CO2 tank from a welding supply store to fill up smaller tanks with a dual valve setup. Been working on trying to fill 9oz tanks tonight. We weighed everything, and zeroed out the empty tank. Began the initial burst fill, and then bleed off that air to cool the tank, and then TRIED to fill the tank with 8oz of Co2. The kicker is that we can only get 2-3 oz in the dern thing. We have tried several times with the same results. New 50# tank and fully filled.

The Co2 tank is supposed to be siphon (as it is labled as such), but am beginning to wander if it is mislabled?

Any ideas? We have tried two 9oz tanks to see if it was a problem with them, but had the same results.

Thanks in advance for any help!:confused:

I usually pre-chill the tanks in my freezer for at least 2 hours before filling, I don't have any luck just putting in a couple of ozs and then chilling it that way with co2, by pre-chilling I can get 8 ozs in with no troubles until the 50 lb tank gets low. If that don't work you could have a mislabeled or defective tank, " siphone tube" missing or broken or? But the troubles you are having is what i have if I don't pre-chill the tanks.
 

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I feel your pain my brother

I went thru all the post and I had the same issue. Yes, like you all my first fills where easy, no chilling, just filling. At about the half fill point on the bulk tank, it stopped being easy. I got the same numbers, 20oz, fill to 8oz, 9 to 3oz. I try the same thing, freeze the tank, 1 hour, 2 hours, 3 hours, I still get the mini fills.
Here is my theory. It’s a liquid and co2 gas problem. CO2 works by the temperature around it. If it’s 60F, the CO2 liquid will make gas to the 750psi point and stop. The rest of it stays liquid. At 70F it’s around 800psi, at 80F it’s 950psi and so on. I have my bulk tank in my garage so it’s temp is the outside temp. Now the tank PSI is the pushing power, as the tank empties, move room is made to gas and less for liquid. What I did to prove this is install a 0 to 3000 psi gage to my filler. The tank psi is what the outside temp makes it. It’s about 80 in the days and my tank runs about 950psi. I connect a frozen tank, and it will fill to the 33% line. Why? I found the in a filled CO2 tank, co2 will be 7/18 oz/cubic in. Ya, 7/18. Do the math, 7/18 X 20oz, is 7.8oz, 7/18 x 9oz, 3.5oz. Sound familiar? That is the same numbers we get at this magic point we can’t fill. What I think is happening is the tank have equalized, pushing pressure to push pressure. Now, part #2. At the point I think the equation below kicks in.
Tank #1 - (Pressure*Volume)/Temp = (Pressure*Volume)/Temp - Tank #2
This means, as tank pressure increases the temp of the tank increases. So as you put gas in the 20oz tank the pressure increase and the tank increases in temp. And temp works the CO2, so in my garage at 80F (950psi), and a 40F(600psi) tank is filled the temp goes up to 80F, and now the 20oz tank pressure is equal to the bulk tank 950psi. My 0 to 3000 pressure gages shows these pressures as it works. What I did is hook up a tank to fill, 20 oz tank, and it filled to 8oz. no more. I placed the 20oz tank still connected into a bucket of cold water. With the bulk tank value off, you can see the 20oz tank pressure drop. It would drop to about 800psi, I opened the bulk tank valve, and the little tank took on more gas, but the pressure would climb to 950psi and the filling stops. I turn the valve off, the 20oz psi drops again(it’s still in the cold water getting colder), and I fill it a little more. I did this on a 20oz tank and filled it to 90% in about 4 “mini” fills. What I did to help the speed in add ice to the water, and rock salt to the ice (makes it colder). The little tank psi dropped to 600psi much faster. I could do bigger “mini” fills. You need to know the empty weight and full weight of your tanks, but you can get more gas out of your bulk tank.
I haven’t done it, but heating the bulk tank should do same thing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Nice detailed post above:) I see you really got into it:) I am still trying to get more then 35 lbs. of CO2 out of my 50lb bulk tank, the guy I rent the tank from gave me some more tips when I went to exchange my empty tank with him.

Be sure to freeze the tank in the freezer for at least 2 hours, which I have always done, this always works for me until I get down to the last part of the tank

Try inverting the small tank when filling it, meaning make a setup that can safely hold the small tank valve end down to sit on your scale, which I have not done yet, I have always filled them on their side or standing straight up.

He claims I should be able to get almost all of the CO2 out of the bulk tank but it might require freezing and re-freezing to get the Oz's in the bottle, you must know the empty weight of bottle, which I do, 32 Oz's. empty on my 20 oz bottle.

And he said at around 80 to 100 degrees outside the bulk tanks pressure is only 1200psi and when filling the little tank as soon as the little tanks pressure reaches 1200psi or whatever the tanks pressure is at, no more will go into the little tank, so you must drop the little tanks temp to allow the pressure to drop so that more CO2 can go into it from the bulk tank.

The key is the difference of pressure between the big tank and small tank, I'm trying to make a set up that will hold either my 20 Oz or 9 oz tanks in a small container that I will have dry ice in to keep them cool as I fill that will sit atop my digital scale, I don't know if that will keep them cool enough to allow more CO2 to go in but I will give it a try, using just ice cubes surrounding the tanks don't work for me.

I still think you need a pump like was suggested earlier by a moderator, and the guy I rent the tank from says that the company that fills his uses a huge pump to get the CO2 into the tanks, no chilling, the pump forces the CO2 into the bulk tank. He also said that I could rent one of the bigger CO2 bulk tanks too, it weighs in at 725lbs, that would be fun to haul that around, it's already fun to haul around a full 50lb tank at around 190lbs. :):)

Anymore ideas please post, as as I stated I only put 19ozs in a 20oz tank and 8 ozs in a 9 oz tank for safety reasons, and I use a very accurate digital scale, accurate to the 10th of an oz, I average about 550 ozs out of my bulk tanks, that is the amount that goes into the tanks without re-freezing and goofing around, that is the easy fill amount I get out of the bulk tank, after that I can only get about 2 to 3 ozs at a time into the tanks, then I have to freeze and add more, freeze, add more, etc. etc. I don't count them ozs because it's too much bull, especially if your out of CO2 in the small tanks and your having a battle, no one wants to wait for the tanks to freeze to be able to add more and so forth, so the only time I do that is when I have some tanks I can play with.

I must add to that the total amount of ozs I get about 550 ozs includes a .5 oz waste I add that happens every time I connect and disconnect the tank, I lose a little doing that which was in the hose and valve and recharging the hose and valve when connecting a new tank. So I just add .5 oz to each tank I fill when I keep records of the fills, which I have always done.

I priced the CO2 pumps online and they get pricey, I'd rather switch to HPA but there is no one within 100 miles of us that fills them and a HPA pump costs some bucks, big bucks, if it didn't I'd be off CO2 in a heartbeat:):)
 

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I was looking up HPA compressor setups
If you fill other peoples tanks and charge them for it, you could actually start making money, especially if you're the only guy with HPA within 100 miles of the next place with a compressor

my field has pumps for CO2 to get the CO2 from the bulk tanks into our personal tanks, pretty cool
 

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Getting the most out of your CO2 tank.

Its part of the law of diminishing returns, every time you fill a tank from another, it robs a little of the total pressure in the main tank. Imagine if you tried to fill a #50 tank from a #50 tank. The two would equalize and each would have #25. If you tried to fill another #50 tank off of the same, it would only get #12.5. This same principle affects 20oz. cylinders as well, although it's harder to see. Don't think of the weight as much as the % in each cylinder. A half full main tank can only fill a smaller tank half way. The bigger the main tank, the slower that % will drop, but more CO2 is unavailable in the tank when the % gets to low. The only way to maximize the amount of CO2 transfered is by using a cascade system. Fill up your 20oz.cylinder as much as possible with a #50 tank that only has #25 left- theoretically you should get 10oz. max if there were no temp. loss(1/2 cylinder fill from a tank that's 1/2 full) , then top off the 20oz. cylinder using a newer tank with #50 in it (full fill from a full tank). Your #25 tank will drop a little, and the #50 tank will drop a little as well. When your high % tank drops too much, add another #50 tank into the system in order to top each fill off. with 3 or 4 tanks in the cascade system, you should be able to bleed a #50 tank down to about #5 before having to return it. now your next lowest tank becomes the initial fill tank, and the new exchange becomes the last in the system. It is now your job to decide if you fill enough cylinders per year that the savings of getting #45 vs. #25 from a tank plus an almost full fill every time offsets the price of renting more tanks.
 

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The Answer... To life, fame and why the tanks won't fill!

I will try to keep this brief and non-technical, but please pardon me if I fail on one or both points!

Vapor pressure: The pressure of a vapor in thermodynamic equilibrium with its condensed phases in a closed container. All liquids and solids have a tendency to evaporate into a gaseous form, and all gases have a tendency to condense back to their liquid or solid form.
It relates to the tendency of particles to escape from the liquid (or a solid). A substance with a high vapor pressure at normal temperatures is often referred to as volatile.
The vapor pressure of any substance increases non-linearly with temperature according to the Clausius–Clapeyron relation.



1. The pressure of liquid CO2 in a tank is dependent on the temperature. Period.
If you have 49 pounds of liquid CO2 in your tank, and the temperature of the Contents of the tank is 70 degrees, the pressure will be 853 psi. If you have 2 pounds of liquid CO2 in your tank, and the temperature of the Contents of the tank is 70 degrees, the pressure will be 853 psi. The pressure doesn't begin to drop until the liquid is all gone, at which point the gas pressure will drop quickly. This is due to the Vapor Pressure of the liquid being constant at a given temperature. When the pressure drops when you open the valve, more liquid evaporates to bring the pressure back up. (for those that say "but when I am playing, the pressure drops before all the liquid is gone" I say, yes, all the liquid evaporating chills the contents, thus lowering the pressure! :)

2. Don't get the weight designations mixed up.
A 50# CO2 tank has 50 pounds of liquid in it. I have seen some that have confused that with pounds of pressure. If you are dealing with PSI of gas, then it is true that if you have 2 tanks of the same size, one is empty and one is full and you connect them, you will end up with 2 half-full tanks. But we are dealing with liquid weight and vapor pressure, not PSI here, so those comparisons fall flat.

3. The Medical grade and the industrial grade gases get filled from the same big tank.
The main difference I am aware of is that they purge the Medical tanks before each filling. The tanks themselves are identical, and I have never run into a tank with crud or anything in it. When they hydro them every few years, they are flushed and cleaned, and since the same tanks get used for medical grade, they would be just as clean. Just remember that the Medical Oxygen is more expensive than the generic oxygen for the same reason that the generic drugs are cheaper. No good reason in other words! I researched this when I wanted to see if I could use welding oxygen internally, and in the process, I got to wander my local tank farm and fill plant.

4. The only 2 ways to get the liquid into the smaller tank (without a pump), are temperature difference or gravity.
If the tanks are the same temperature, the liquid is going to flow in and evaporate quickly until the pressure matches. The colder the small tank, the longer it takes for the pressure to rise, and the more liquid you can get in.
If you have the bulk tank above the empty tank, you will also get head pressure which will help, but not as much as a cold tank.

5. Anti-Siphon VS Siphon tubes.
Paintball tanks sometimes have Anti-Siphon tubes to prevent liquid from getting sucked into the gas system. They place the inlet to the valve above the liquid level. The type of tank used for a fill station is a Siphon tank, or Dip-Tube tank. It has a tube that goes from the valve almost to the bottom of the tank so that when you open the valve, liquid comes out. The other option for those that don't have dedicated fill station tanks is to invert a standard CO2 bottle (safely. If you don't know what the OSHA regs are for Proper Securement Of Gas Bottles, don't try it! :)

6. This is a different kettle of fish than anything any of you seem to know about Pressure Transfer, Hydraulics, Boyle's Law, 1st Law of Thermodynamics, Moore's Law, Murphy's Law.... Ok, Murphy's Law does apply fully, and Murphy was an optimist! But in any case, none of those concepts deal well with Vapor Pressure of a liquid, and CO2 is an odd one at that!

7. A cascade system will not work with liquid CO2 like it does with gases.
Again, remember that you are dealing with Vapor Pressure which is the same in a 1% full 9oz tank as it is in a 99% full 100# tank. (at the same temp)



@jgilk1, not to pick on you, but since you were close on several things, I will point out one flaw. The amount of liquid you can get in the 20oz tank has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of liquid in the 50# tank, and everything to do with the temperature of the liquid after it enters the 20oz tank. If the 20oz tank is really hot, the first bit of liquid that hits it will evaporate so fast you will end up with no more liquid entering the tank, because the pressure rises too fast.
On the other hand, if you have the tank below the Triple Point temperature (when the Vapor Pressure, Temperature and Pressure reach balance), you will fill it 100% full with no evaporation.
This isn't even dependent on pressure difference, this is dependent on how fast the liquid evaporates, which is dependent on how warm the liquid is and how warm the bottle is.
I believe you are getting Hydraulics and Gas laws mixed up in a Vapor pressure world.
I think (but have not tried this myself... Yet!) that the colder you have the liquid in the bulk tank, the better it will fill the small tank. Yes, the bulk tank pressure will drop, but it's the evaporation rate that kills you...

Possible way to keep the bulk tank cool, drape it in a cotton cloth - sheet/towels/etc, and keep a trickle of water going over it (or re-soak them once in a while), and maybe a shine a fan on it. The evaporation of the water will chill it quite a bit. Try it and see if it makes any difference.




@Goldpanner. (pardon if I ask anything you already said)

A. Have you actually weighed the 50# tanks before and after using them? Some tanks will have a Full weight stamped on them, or subtract the Tare. Are they containing 50# when you get them, and are they still containing 15# when you can't use them anymore?
When they get to the point of not being usable, take the fill station off, and open the valve a little bit (STAND TO THE SIDE! ;), and see if a pure stream of liquid comes out, or if it spits some gas with the liquid. (obviously the liquid isn't going to come out in a nice stream, but you can tell the difference between gas and liquid!) If it looks like it is just liquid, do it while rocking the tank to see if it sloshes off the bottom of the dip tube. (in which case you know you are right at the bottom of it)
If it is putting gas out, and you still have 15# of liquid left, you should complain to your supplier! They may make the dip-tube shorter to make more money, who knows...

B. When you are only getting the partial fills, if you take and re-freeze the PB tanks, can you get them to fill all the way, even if it takes several cycles?
If you can, then it doesn't have anything to do with the liquid level in the bulk tank, it's a temperature thing.

C. Is there any possibility that this coincides with weather? Is it always towards the end of summer that the problem starts, or is it totally dependent on the amount used out of the tank?

D. Another possibility is that as the tank gets close to empty, the thermal mass of the liquid fill is reduced, so the liquid heats up more during the day, causing the liquid to evaporate quicker in the PB tank.
A full tank would keep a pretty constant temperature between hot days and cooler nights, but the less mass, the more temp change you are going to have. Each time you use it, it cools the tank down, but with less mass the temp would rise faster, which would reduce the amount of liquid removed, which would reduce the amount of evaporation, causing less cooling effect, etc, etc...

E. If you are getting all but 15# out of it, I would doubt that it is possible it doesn't have a dip tube, but I also wouldn't rule that out until you found a definite cause! (i.e., don't try flipping until you have tried everything else! :)


Ok, looks like this will have to have a part 2...
 

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Part deux O' the answer. (Part B for the people that don't speak Spanish)

And continuing with part 2...


@WillieSolomon, Noooo!!!!! :eek:

I was nodding along and impressed with your analytical process (I am a Hydraulics and Industrial Control Systems designer and troubleshooter, so I have learned the value of logical step-by-step working through a problem! :ninja:.
But...
You had all the facts, then you jumped off the bridge. Ok, you just jumped to a conclusion, but it's close! :)
Your last line was suggesting you heat the tank (which admittedly I did also think of at one point as I worked through this problem), but all the facts you had listed before it point the other way.
You fill a 20oz, and it warms up to 80 deg. Why is that? Is it because it is soaking up heat from the room very rapidly to reach 80 deg? Is it just from the pressure increase in the tank raising the temperature?
Or, is it because you are sticking 80 deg liquid CO2 into a 40 deg tank, increasing the pressure at the same time? (I vote for this one!)

In other words, chill your bulk tank, and the liquid will be closer to the Triple Point, reducing evaporation rate, and reducing the speed of temp/pressure rise in the small tank. (I think...)
When the big boys are filling your 50# tank, they use a pump, but after the pump it runs through a heat exchanger to cool it back to ambient, and in many cases it's actually chilled, sometimes to Cryo temperature.

Oh, I am not a math nerd, but your "7/18 oz/cubic in" equation doesn't seem to work, since you aren't using cubic inches in any of the equation! That equation would only help if you knew the actual volume of the tank in, umm... Cubic Inches! Since the tanks are rated by fill weight, the cu/in aren't really helpful. In fact, I have heard that a "full" tank is only 34% full of liquid, due to some of the funny properties of CO2. I have to wonder if that was a misprint and it was supposed to be 3/4 full, but I haven't checked further. In any case, it's nowhere near cu/in full!

I would also ask you, could it have coincided with increasing room temperatures? Or could it be that as the volume decreases, the liquid warms up faster?




@Everybody

Experiment time! Find some way to measure the temperature of your bulk tank when you first get it, and then when you start having problems with it, check the temperature again.
A pressure gauge such as @WillieSolomon's would be a great way.
See if the problems coincide with liquid temp increase.

Then try cooling it, recording temp/pres, and see if it works better. If not, try heating it.

Another way to effect cooling is to chill the liquid between the bulk tank and the PB tank, similar to the big boys.
You would have to rig up some sort of heat exchanger. Maybe an extra length or 10 of HP hose coiled in an ice/salt water bath? Dry ice? You could use a bunch of nipples and elbows and get the same affect. If you can get the liquid chilled without reducing the Vapor Pressure in the bulk tank, that would be ideal, but it would also be more work!


Well, this turned out a lot longer than I expected.... Ok not really, this ain't my first time sharing my seeming endless words to pad my small amount of wisdom (and wikipedia quotes.. ;), but I think I kept the techno-dazzle down pretty good... :)
Oh, and for the record, I found this looking for some more information on PB tanks as I plan another project, and actually joined this site just because I couldn't not reply to this thread! It sucks being me sometimes... heh heh

Hope this makes the subject clear as mud for ya'll, and if I stepped on any toes or offended any one, whoopdedoo! (But I didn't intend to! :)
YMMV, AFAIK, ROTFLMAO, RTFM, and I'm a poet and didn't know it...

Game on!
Ben~
KE6GWF
'73 CJ5 krawler
Etc...

Oh ya, and 42
 

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when you buy a co2 tank to fill your small tanks douse it have to have a dip tube?

c;2047932]Well I have been filling them for about 4 or 5 years, so I know a little bit about it.

We get at least twice the amount of fills you do. We usually get around 35-40 20oz fills before we exchange our tanks. And they are all good fills. According your your numbers you get about 25.

Our first tank didn't have the siphon in it, so we only got around 20 fills out of it, which is why I thought you had the wrong type of tank. So all I can tell you is continue to chill the tanks. As for the inverting part, don't say it will not work if you don't try it.

Also, remember not to get the tanks too cold. You can freeze up the pins and waste a whole small tank.


Martix, the reason for chilling the tanks is when you fill a hot tank, the first burst of liquid CO2 you put in the tank expands, and results in less liquid in the tank. So Goldplanner, if you don't have time to chill them with a fridge/freezer, make sure you tell the people using them not to completely empty their tanks. That way when you let the air out before refilling it, that chills it also.


Question, how do you transport the tanks? And what temperatures are they kept in?[/QUOTE]
 

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is there a suction tank you need to get from a welding store or any co2 tank will work for fill small tanks
The proper way to run a fill station is to get a dip-tube or siphon tube equipped tank. (you have to ask your gas supplier for it, most tanks don't have one)
The other option is to make a mount that will securely hold a regular CO2 cylinder (without a dip tube) upside down.

You don't want to leave any pressure vessel in direct sunlight or high temperatures if you can avoid it. Once you get over 100 degrees, depending on how full a tank it is, you are pushing the safety limits, and liable to blow a relief disk.
You can transport the tanks in any way that protects the valve from getting damaged! They need to be secured to keep them from rolling or sliding around, and so they don't become projectiles in an accident.
Commercially, tanks are supposed to be only hauled upright, but that doesn't always happen...
As long as the valve can't get broken off, you are pretty good!

My personal set-up is an Aluminum 20# capacity CO2 cylinder. It is the type that you see at restaurants and soda machines. They are almost polished!
They have a heavy plastic collar/handle protecting the valve which make moving them easy, and also makes flipping them easy. You just have to use a chain or strap to something solid to keep them from tipping over.
I have a large CO2 welding-style pressure regulator that turns this tank into a portable air source for filling tires or running air tools when I am out in my Jeep. It makes tire repairs and refilling big tires when you get back to the road so fast and easy!. (I used to drive tow truck, and kept it on my truck for refilling tires and running my impact wrench) Oh ya, I also use it for welding!

I think you can get these with dip-tubes, but you may not be able to just swap for a full one, you might have to wait a few days for them to fill yours. It depends on the supplier... But they are pretty! :)

HTH,
Ben~
 

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We use CO2 for putting fires out. How do you weld with it? Or is that the inert gas?
It takes years of training and practice before you are able to light up an Oxy/CO2 torch, let me tell you...
Actually, I still haven't been able to do it! Maybe someday.... :devil::naughty

Ya, I was referring to MIG/Wirefeed type welding, using it as inert shielding gas.
It isn't the best shielding gas for many types of welding, but it is the cheapest! On the larger shop welders, I do use other gases, but for the portable ones I usually use CO2 unless I am welding something exotic.
I also am set up to use my CO2 tank for the welder, as a fire extinguisher, filling jeep/truck tires, running air tools, filling PB tanks, pressure testing plumbing systems, flushing/purging hydraulic and air systems, and a couple of other uses. I wouldn't be able to do all of that with any other gas.

And now, back to Paintball! :)

Ben~
 

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ke6gwf - Thanks for the great info. I use argon as my inert on my MIG welder. But I am a hobbyist welder and don't use much.

Just found this site after already going through my first 20# cylinder. By the way, I think code requires that the tank be marked as siphon tube on the side if it is. Mine is marked as siphon very clearly. I bought my tank outright since in the long run it would be cheaper than rent, and having 3 boys I will be in the tank filling business for quite some time.

My wife is taking the tank in today to have it filled. I asked her to weigh it before she did, and then I will weigh tonight. I'd like to see how much we actually got out of it. She is also going to ask how far from the bottom the siphon tube is. I had already discovered the tank chilling trick. You can easily overfill a tank that way, so weighing is a must. I also premarked all my small cylinders with empty and target fill weights so that I can "top off" tanks. Another reason is that if I am a little slow, the scale shuts off before I am done filling, and then I have lost my reference point if I zeroed it out.

When the supply tank gets lower I had a hard time filling it. I think my dad has a vacuum pump I am going to borrow. I'll bet that evacuating the cylinder will make a difference. Like stated above you can't put pressure on pressure. I was going to have the 20# tank "topped off" before last weekend since my nephew was having a paintball party for his birthday and I wanted to be able to fill everyone's tanks for them. That's when the industrial air supply place told me they can't do that. They have to empty it and evacuate it.

In a nutshell, I will try some experimenting and post what I find.
 

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hi i have a #50 co2 tank and i use it for filling my paint ball tank and my sodastream tanks to when my tank gets low i freeze my tanks i don't have to freeze them for 3 hrs maybe a hour or 30 mins but i got a heating blanket that raps around my tank at all times i keep my tank at 95 degress to a 100 and when i am done with my 50 pound tank there is no gas at all in it alot of companys dont want you 2 empty the tank totaly becase they can rust if there is no presser in the tank that is why i know this be cuz i worked there befor so if you don't want to go that way then just take a 2 liter and empty the co2 in it and u will get dry ice so crush it and put it in your paint ball tank and screw the top back on fast and tight and there u go get your money worth i do but the heating blank it works the best i got mine off amazon for 10$ it is 12v and will get dam hot quick and i don't worry about over filling to much i do have a nice scale to and i tell u what i use my 20oz and 24oz tanks for all kinds of things like i orderd a cga 320 adapter and got a set of gages to hook up to 24oz tank and with the gages you can regulate the presser comming out to my welder and holy **** it will run for 40 to 45 mins of welding off just a 20 pound tank and then i put a qick relice on my hose and i can run nail guns sander all kinds of stuff just like an air compresser with out the noise and on a 20 oz i can nail 500 nails of one inch niles each tank has 1800 psi @70f
just make sure that if you are on a roof that you buy a cover for the tank you don't!!!!!! want it to get hoter then 130f and if it dose then you will blow the 3k side vale but better then blowing your self up right you can get burst disk at local paintball shop or amozon i hope this helps or maybe try useing what i have ben hearing at the range the are useing 80cu suba tanks at 3400psi that they call the big man all it is.is a big hpa with gages so when you start letting them fly the tank dosen't get cold becase it is air compressed that is the new thing look it up at u tube but i love my co2 let me know if this helps k
Don
 

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hi i have a #50 co2 tank and i use it for filling my paint ball tank and my sodastream tanks to when my tank gets low i freeze my tanks i don't have to freeze them for 3 hrs maybe a hour or 30 mins but i got a heating blanket that raps around my tank at all times i keep my tank at 95 degress to a 100 and when i am done with my 50 pound tank there is no gas at all in it alot of companys dont want you 2 empty the tank totaly becase they can rust if there is no presser in the tank that is why i know this be cuz i worked there befor so if you don't want to go that way then just take a 2 liter and empty the co2 in it and u will get dry ice so crush it and put it in your paint ball tank and screw the top back on fast and tight and there u go get your money worth i do but the heating blank it works the best i got mine off amazon for 10$ it is 12v and will get dam hot quick and i don't worry about over filling to much i do have a nice scale to and i tell u what i use my 20oz and 24oz tanks for all kinds of things like i orderd a cga 320 adapter and got a set of gages to hook up to 24oz tank and with the gages you can regulate the presser comming out to my welder and holy **** it will run for 40 to 45 mins of welding off just a 20 pound tank and then i put a qick relice on my hose and i can run nail guns sander all kinds of stuff just like an air compresser with out the noise and on a 20 oz i can nail 500 nails of one inch niles each tank has 1800 psi @70f
just make sure that if you are on a roof that you buy a cover for the tank you don't!!!!!! want it to get hoter then 130f and if it dose then you will blow the 3k side vale but better then blowing your self up right you can get burst disk at local paintball shop or amozon i hope this helps or maybe try useing what i have ben hearing at the range the are useing 80cu suba tanks at 3400psi that they call the big man all it is.is a big hpa with gages so when you start letting them fly the tank dosen't get cold becase it is air compressed that is the new thing look it up at u tube but i love my co2 let me know if this helps k
Don
 

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Try purging your siphon tube each time you fill. Not as necessary when the tank is full since the tube is also full but half empty the liquid in that tube turns to gas down to the level of the liquid and very quickly. If you get regular tanks and invert them you'll also solve the problem and be able to pull 45lbs+ from a tank. Might be cheaper getting regular tanks too. Just have a secure way of flipping them with the cap still on before trying that.
 
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