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Discussion Starter #1
Anyone else think its odd that this subject comes up more now than it did when the Holocaust had really just happened?

Also, does it annoy anyone else to hear people denying that it happened? I mean i've spent a good portion of the last 3 years studying German history and have been to one of the labour camps and seen the evidence and find the idea that its just a product of Jewish propaganda to be totally aborrent. Especially since the first victims of the camps were socialists and other immediate opponents of the Nazis?

I guess i live in a different world from these people
 

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There's some proffesor at I think Northwestern that claims it never happened. People like that make me want to drown kittens.
 

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About 2-3 years ago, i would hardly ever hear about this. Now, I constantly hear Jew comments, nazi, hitler and all that stuff.

And my brother went to one of them last year, while he was in Germany. He said it was the worst thing he had ever saw.
 

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Yeah the holocaust is unreal. I don't think anyone today can really comprehend what happened in europe during the 40's.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I've been to Sachenhausen twice. Both times were schools/college trips to Berlin which i went on becasue i took both German and History. It wasn't to bad the first time, i had kinda prepared myself for the worst and wasn't to shocked by it. The second time, last year, it was the middle of winter and they had added a whole load of new exhibitions full of artifacts and testimonies and for some reason it chilled me to the bone, i felt sick in a way i hadn't really experienced before or since. I'm never going to another one.
 

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NYY said:
There's some proffesor at I think Northwestern that claims it never happened. People like that make me want to drown kittens.
Theres another person in this world who doesnt think it ever happened, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. For those who dont know who he is, he is the president of Iran. I hope you guys know whats going on over there. When theres a guy who hates the jews, thinks that Isreal should be wiped off the map, denys the holocaust pubically, and has nuclear weapons we got a big problem. In the next month if we got to war with Iran, which we would have many allies with us this time, you better suport the war because I never want another holocaust to happen again.
 

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^^ a second halocaust will not happen. especially from another country. They just dont have the man power anymore. Back then, we didnt have a lot of police, and people in this country didnt give a ****. Thats different now.

Thats like saying schools are going to be segregated again.

As for nuclear weapons...yeah. I hope they dont think that we buy their "oh were just using enriched uranium for ENERGY" plan.
 

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It wouldn't be a "holocaust" between Iran and Israel, it would however be a very intense stand-off if Iran is successful in obtaining nuclear weapons.
 

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doublethreatguy said:
^^ a second halocaust will not happen. especially from another country. They just dont have the man power anymore. Back then, we didnt have a lot of police, and people in this country didnt give a ****. Thats different now.

Thats like saying schools are going to be segregated again.

As for nuclear weapons...yeah. I hope they dont think that we buy their "oh were just using enriched uranium for ENERGY" plan.
what are you talking about? there have been many "holocausts" since the end of the jewish holocaust. 3 of them occured during the past 15 years that i can think of off the top of my head.
 

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honestly there's nothing anyone can do to say anyhting to people who deny its existence. there is evidence enough evidence to prove it happened. thats all.

being jewish i've spent so much time learning about the holocaust through my life. ive been so god knows how many museums, talked to so many survivors, watched videos, taken classes, etc. whenever i think that people deny it, it makes me sad inside because i know what jewish people had to go through and ive seen and heard about it and i just wish people owuld stop being so ignorant.

theres also another thing: the numbers. 6milion jews 11million total. now alot of people claim that the numbers may have been altered by the allies at the end of the war. its not completely far'fetched that the numbers were altereed, i dont personally believe they were, but i can say it wouldnt suprise me if they were. but i do beleive millions of jews were killed (doesnt matter how many though, so what difference does it make?)

next year im taking a class called Facing History and Ourselves and we have 1 english portion of the class, and one social studies portion. we go over different topics in world history. the social studies portion focuses on the cause reason and technical historical part of the holocaust. the english portion focuses on the moral, literary side of the holocaust. so its an interesting class, and in college i want to learn even more that i can about the holocaust. i just think its so important, its easily one of the worst genocides in world history, and one of, if not the worst, in modern history.
 

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doublethreatguy said:
^^ a second halocaust will not happen. especially from another country. They just dont have the man power anymore. Back then, we didnt have a lot of police, and people in this country didnt give a ****. Thats different now.

Thats like saying schools are going to be segregated again.

As for nuclear weapons...yeah. I hope they dont think that we buy their "oh were just using enriched uranium for ENERGY" plan.
thats a big overkill to say a second holocaust wont happen. it may not happen the same way it did in germany, it may not happen to the same people, and it may not have the same amount of innocent casualites. but there have been equally worse genocides in the past 15 years like NYY said, but i understand you mean a huge full-scale genocide like during ww2.
 

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NYY said:
what are you talking about? there have been many "holocausts" since the end of the jewish holocaust. 3 of them occured during the past 15 years that i can think of off the top of my head.

i'm talking about a 6 million Jew's dead Halocaust, were people were sent to death camps.
 

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There haven't been instances with millions dead, but there have been mass murders, there has been ethnic cleansing, there have been death camps. The number of deaths is irrelevant. The fact that this stuff still goes on, and people like Clinton ignored it is disturbing. You'd think that after World War II, everyone learned a valuable lesson, but many didn't. We are so lucky to have Bush as president because he knows what's right and wrong, and he knows when to take action. Iranians want to see Israelis wiped out, and if we need to go to war to prevent them, then we will need to go to war.
 

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NYY said:
There haven't been instances with millions dead, but there have been mass murders, there has been ethnic cleansing, there have been death camps. The number of deaths is irrelevant. The fact that this stuff still goes on, and people like Clinton ignored it is disturbing. You'd think that after World War II, everyone learned a valuable lesson, but many didn't. We are so lucky to have Bush as president because he knows what's right and wrong, and he knows when to take action. Iranians want to see Israelis wiped out, and if we need to go to war to prevent them, then we will need to go to war.
Hey, what about Darfur? Where's your beloved Presidente on that?
 

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You're right, we do need to do something there, and i think that bush should push for support in that area, but he would never get support.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
I think its important to remember four things.

Firstly that the Holocaust didn't affect just Jews. The Nazis sought to destroy anyone who dissagreed frrm their worldview, could potentially challenge them, or failed to meet their 'genetic' criteria - Jews, Gypsies, Slavs and so on. This is something we must always remeber becasues i think it helps to negate the deniers of the holocaust who call it a jewish conspiracy.

Secondly, morality is a often a poor compass for conducting international relations. Our good intentions often blind us to the realities on the ground and the complexities of the situation we're about to wade into and becasue theres no actual threat to ourselves in these war of choice the whole thing tends to be badly planned and poorly thought out. Perhaps its better to let people make their own mistakes without us there so they can't turn around and blame us. That sounds horrible, morally, but is quite realistic. If anyone hasn't read The Assassins Gate by George Packer then i suggest it. It's far from perfect but is a ripping good book on the perils of morality in foreign relations.

Thirdly, why is everyone ripping on Clinton? He went against US public opinion to bomb Serbia into ceasing ethnic clensing in Kosovo. It wasn't a perfect strategy, but workign with the little latitude the US public was giving him to work with it was probably the best he could manage. He later called the failure to act in Rwanda one of his biggest regrets and i think he said the same of Bosnia, which the whole world failed to react to.

Fourthly, with regard to Iran, the situation there is more complex than i tink most poeple realise. The President actually has little real power and it is entirely possible that he is speaking to a domestic audience reather than and international one. The extent to which we should be concerned is dependant on the mood in the other branches of government, the Supreme Leader in particular. We have very limited knowledge of these areas.

In addition, military strikes, sanctions and other international measures are likely to simply polarise the Iranian people towards the goverment, no matter how much they hate it - look at the way many liberals rallied around President Bush despite the fact that they can't stand the man. The middle classes who represent a measure of secularity and opposition to the Islamic regime will be forced towards the Islamiststs. In the long term this is the engine of change in Iranian society. Alienation of this group at this time could set back the progress of democratic forces in Iran for years and encourage further extremism. The West has to be whiter than white, it must be clear to everyone who the aggressor is and it has to been by everyone to be Iran and its Islamic leadership. If that means we have to wait for Iran to d something really stupid then i guess that what we have to do.
 

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one of the most horrible things about the holocaust was imo, that most of these main countries involved in WW2 were aware of it. they had some evidence of it, but it really wasn't a main concern at the time. and most of the countries said after the war they didn't know the holocaust became as bad as it did until after the war when they came across the death camps
 

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you guys are right lets just attack iran. someone find a magic potion or something that gives us a whole bunch of money and fresh troops to do so. its easy to hate taxes say the defense budget is far too high ect. but then call for war. we are so stretched thin right now that the military can barely function in a 2 front engagement. and both are only simmering wars. this isn't a red hot war or a cold one its just a problem spot. so ask yourself do you want to be drafted? do you want your friends to go to war? its easy to call your nation to battle if you are staying home.

Ive been to the holocaust museam in dc and it was very interesting. I believe it happened and I also believe that the jewish culture now embrases it as there struggle. it happened a long time ago. they got there jewish state and it has cause nightmares since. Im not being racial right now and don't mean to offend. When other countries face genocide at a rate much like that of the jews and are liberated think african countries bosnia ect when the oppresion is lifted they show thanks. The jews asked for more. then tell everyone about it. if that is your game plan then fine but for those of us who aren't within your religion it gets old. A huge number of my family was killed in the 1500s by the french over religion. The crusades waged back and forth by religion so many people died because of it. Millions of russians died in labor camps for not conforming to communism or looking at someone wrong or religion or any number of things. One of my friends from highschool had his dad come to america from china at a time when the whole army of blue ants crap was taking place. people were dying and oppressed but he never said a word about it. There struggle was over they were free and had a good life in america. Very few cultures continue to show a scar that they don't personally carry. There are a couple cultures that do this and Its a personality trait that I can't stand. just me ranting.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
DaBluedevil said:
At first they weren't the prime target, but after the Wannsee Conference(Google it, they have the documents of the meeting on the internet) they decided to gas jews to get rid of them since they couldn't export them anywhere.
Yeah, i'll definatly agree with you there. Initially the Nazi effort focussed on the traditional pillars of political opposition both because of political expediency and because the electoral route to power chosen by Hitler meant that his vicious anti-semitism had to be toned down in order for Nazi ideology to appeal to middle ground voters who would be alienated by overt anti-semitism. Once in power the Nazi grasp on power was still tenuous untill after the death of President Hindenburg and it was not untill the late 1930s that the true extent of Nazi hatred became apparent, although much of the intent had been laid down in Mein Kampf.
 

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NYY said:
what are you talking about? there have been many "holocausts" since the end of the jewish holocaust. 3 of them occured during the past 15 years that i can think of off the top of my head.
So can I -- Rohwanda, Serbia, The Belgian Congo, and Iraq.

I walked the halls of Auschwitz in Poland. You can not go there and NOT be effected by it. There are rooms full of spectacles, suitcases, gold teeth, shoes... It makes the figure of 6 million seem somewhat understated.
 
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