Paintball Guns and Gear forums banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
181 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Guys, you dont' need to worry about terrorism anymore. Just watched this documentary on BBC2 (one of the most reputable broadcasters int he world).

THE POWER OF NIGHTMARES - Tken from

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/3970901.stm OR, search on the BBC home page for "The Power of Nightmares".

Some text has been edited for the sake of continuity and clarity.

In the past our politicians offered us dreams of a better world. Now they promise to protect us from nightmares.

The most frightening of these is the threat of an international terror network. But just as the dreams were not true, neither are these nightmares.

It is a myth that has spread unquestioned through politics, the security services and the international media.

At the heart of the story are two groups: the American neo-conservatives and the radical Islamists.

Both were idealists who were born out of the failure of the liberal dream to build a better world.

These two groups have changed the world but not in the way either intended.

Those with the darkest fears became the most powerful

Together they created today's nightmare vision of an organised terror network.

A fantasy that politicians then found restored their power and authority in a disillusioned age. Those with the darkest fears became the most powerful.

The rise of the politics of fear begins in 1949 with two men whose radical ideas would inspire the attack of 9/11 and influence the neo-conservative movement that dominates Washington.

Both these men believed that modern liberal freedoms, civil rights in the USA and the westerisation of the Middle East, were eroding the bonds that held society together.

The two movements they inspired set out, in their different ways, to rescue their societies from this decay. But in an age of growing disillusion with politics, the neo-conservatives turned to fear in order to pursue their vision.

They would create a hidden network of evil run by the Soviet Union that only they could see.

The Islamists were faced by the refusal of the masses to follow their dream and began to turn to terror to force the people to "see the truth"'.

On 25 December 1979, Soviet forces invaded Afghanistan.

Moscow was able to install a friendly government in a neighbouring country but at a price.

The invasion gave a common cause to an extraordinary alliance of radical Islamists in Afghanistan and around the world and to the neo-conservatives in the US.

It was a key battleground of the Cold War.

Washington provided money and arms including even Stinger missiles capable of shooting down Soviet helicopters.

But it was Islamic Mujahideen fighters who would fire them.

Among the many foreigners drawn to Afghanistan was a young, wealthy Saudi called Osama Bin Laden.

Long before 9/11, he would have been seen by neo-conservatives in Washington as one of their foot soldiers, helping fight America's cause.

After nearly 10 years of fighting, Soviet troops pulled out of Afghanistan.

Both the neo-conservatives and the Islamists believed that it is they who defeated the "evil empire" and now had the power to transform the world.

But both failed in their revolutions.

In response, the neo-conservatives invented a new fantasy enemy, Bill Clinton, focusing on the scandal surrounding him and Monica Lewinsky.

Meanwhile, the Islamists descend into a desperate cycle of violence and terror to try to persuade the people to follow them.

Out of all this comes the seeds of the strange world of fantasy, deception, violence and fear in which we now live.

In the wake of the shock and panic created by the devastating attack on the World Trade Center on 11 September, 2001, the neo-conservatives reconstructed the radical Islamists in the image of their last evil enemy, the Soviet Union - a sinister web of terror run from the centre by Osama Bin Laden in his lair in Afghanistan.

There are dangerous and fanatical individuals and groups around the world who have been inspired by extreme Islamist ideas, and who will use the techniques of mass terror - the attacks on America and Madrid make this only too clear.

But the nightmare vision of a uniquely powerful hidden organisation waiting to strike our societies is an illusion.

Wherever one looks for this al-Qaeda organisation, from the mountains of Afghanistan to the "sleeper cells" in America, the British and Americans are chasing a phantom enemy.

But the reason that no-one questions the illusion is because this nightmare enemy gives so many groups new power and influence in a cynical age - and not just politicians.

Those with the darkest imaginations have now become the most powerful.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
148 Posts
tl;dr but where did you steal that extremely long article from?

EDIT: i read most and disagree with about 90% of the article you paranoid little person
 

·
Superdeeduper Admin Type
Joined
·
17,772 Posts
"Reputable Broadcaster" is an oxymoron along the lines of "explicitly ambiguous."

Though it is true that the US in order to defeat the Soviet Union in Afganistan used the Mujahaddin to do their dirty work. Seeing as we supplanted the Red Satan there, all this hate abhors a vacum, so now they turn that energy against the USA. We did not create Bin Laden. Even those that trained him saw that he did not fit the mainstrem Mujahaddin - he was more radical and militant then most. He was CAST OUT of Saudi Arabia because of this. He found fertile ground amoungst the Afghanistan militant muslims - they will not rest until ALL satans are dead, not just the USA.

tl;dr - Bin Laden is a kook, has always been a kook, and the USA didn't make him a terrorist.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
181 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
the BBC is widely held to be the best braodcaster in the world, they've been doing it longer and better than anyone else. The Power of Nightmares was based on 3 years of research, interviews with political analyists and terrorism experts.

We did not create Bin Laden.
I'm not saying you did. Afganistan was simply the point at which the two simular yet opposing ideaologies met and interacted. It woudl be inaccurate to say that the US government, the government of Reagan, was giving billions to the Islamic fighters. there was so much money that by the mid 80's the CIA officer in charge of the money wasn't confident he could actually spend that much. But they did and a large sum proably ended up in the pocket of bin Laden.

The important thing to focus on, is that the terrorist network' as decribed by the British and American governments does not exist. The camps which we destroyed in Afganistan were full of fighters, indeed they were brimming with terrorists, but these wern't member of any particular organisation. 95% of them were training to go and fight in their own countries, or in Kashmir. Bin laden financed some of the camps and in return he was allowed to seek out volunteers for his, new particularly extreme brach of Islamic fundementalism. 9/11 was planned by one man, who incidentall ywas not bin laden, who came to bin laden asking for financial support - bin laden gave it to him as the attack was exactly the kind of thing that bin ladens radical new approach to terror envisioned.

As for paranoia, do not forget that the poeple in the White House at the Presidents side are laregly the same people who occupied it during the 80's. How many times did you here that the Red Devil was the greatest threat ever, when actually it was crumbling from within. Think about this, if you assume that peopel will do almost anything for power (and they will), then it makes perfect sense.

It's not a question of agreeing or disagreeing, it's about what is actually going on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
89 Posts
Flankergeek, you should stop watching The X Files. Paranoid conspiracy theories aren't very healthy for the mind.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
181 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
i havn't watched the X-files in 4 years. it's not a conspiracy, its simply the story of how two simular but opposite political idealogies are interacting.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,674 Posts
Yea it was just as interesting as when I read it on bbc's website....

generally the good thing to do in this situation is to present us with a link and ask us what we think about the issue. The way you presented it was I watched a documentary and this is what I think. The problem is most of it is word for word from bbcs website and you never showed credit due to them. Its easy to see through this kind of stuff so please post up your own thoughts and CITED information rather than someone elses work with an added you don't need to be affraid anymore.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
181 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
understood, i will edit my post accordingly
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,299 Posts
wow. i remember i brought up an extremist article once, but it was kinda rational. kinda. this is just something some fat 40 year old balding guy pulled out of his ass one day, no question. this is just... wow. i can't believe anyone could be so uneducated as to write something like that.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
12,110 Posts
I've got a question.. Do you think if we pulled every trop and piece of military equipment form every "enemy" country, would the threats go away?

I think we should show the islamic radicals that we aren't the great satan.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,674 Posts
actually bob the concept isn't that far out. I saw this episode and the phanto one that follows it and they made alot of sense in there lacking of sense kind of way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
89 Posts
A bit of advice for everyone, don't assume that whut you see on TV is fact. As far as I'm concerned, the media is almost always extremely biased. My advice is to get your information from several news programs, websites, radio shows, and news papers. Then do your research and come to your own determination.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
181 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
I've got a question.. Do you think if we pulled every trop and piece of military equipment form every "enemy" country, would the threats go away?
Nope, that's just the nature of the world we live in, deal with it it's not going to change. The point of the film is that the 'Terrorist Network' that is supposidly all aroudn us but which, only the government can see, does not exist.

there are clearly alot of groups out there who would like to hurt us, but there's really no point worrying about it.

fat 40 year old balding guy pulled out of his ass one day
the man you're refering to is Adam Curtis, he is one of the most distinguished filmmakers in the world with a reputation for depth of research and logical argument, this particular film took about 3 years to comple as it featured in depth interviews with key figures and experts. If you wanna see for yourself go to
http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2002/11_november/06/adam_curtis.shtml

this isn't some Micheal Moore documentary. This is actual insight into todays world.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,674 Posts
Braltar said:
A bit of advice for everyone, don't assume that whut you see on TV is fact. As far as I'm concerned, the media is almost always extremely biased. My advice is to get your information from several news programs, websites, radio shows, and news papers. Then do your research and come to your own determination.
granted as said above it isn't some big money micheal moore lie pie for you to eat up. its foriegn for one part which makes things a little better for seeing them from an outside view. Then again alot of english are very anit bush so you can't gauge it as truth either. part of what you say in the reading multiple sources well even just reading all internal sources is no good either...I browse bbc's webpage every morning when I get up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
418 Posts
Flankergeek said:
Guys, you dont' need to worry about terrorism anymore. Just watched this documentary on BBC2 (one of the most reputable broadcasters int he world).

THE POWER OF NIGHTMARES - Tken from

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/3970901.stm OR, search on the BBC home page for "The Power of Nightmares".

Some text has been edited for the sake of continuity and clarity.

In the past our politicians offered us dreams of a better world. Now they promise to protect us from nightmares.

The most frightening of these is the threat of an international terror network. But just as the dreams were not true, neither are these nightmares.

It is a myth that has spread unquestioned through politics, the security services and the international media.

At the heart of the story are two groups: the American neo-conservatives and the radical Islamists.

Both were idealists who were born out of the failure of the liberal dream to build a better world.

These two groups have changed the world but not in the way either intended.

Those with the darkest fears became the most powerful

Together they created today's nightmare vision of an organised terror network.

A fantasy that politicians then found restored their power and authority in a disillusioned age. Those with the darkest fears became the most powerful.

The rise of the politics of fear begins in 1949 with two men whose radical ideas would inspire the attack of 9/11 and influence the neo-conservative movement that dominates Washington.

Both these men believed that modern liberal freedoms, civil rights in the USA and the westerisation of the Middle East, were eroding the bonds that held society together.

The two movements they inspired set out, in their different ways, to rescue their societies from this decay. But in an age of growing disillusion with politics, the neo-conservatives turned to fear in order to pursue their vision.

They would create a hidden network of evil run by the Soviet Union that only they could see.

The Islamists were faced by the refusal of the masses to follow their dream and began to turn to terror to force the people to "see the truth"'.

On 25 December 1979, Soviet forces invaded Afghanistan.

Moscow was able to install a friendly government in a neighbouring country but at a price.

The invasion gave a common cause to an extraordinary alliance of radical Islamists in Afghanistan and around the world and to the neo-conservatives in the US.

It was a key battleground of the Cold War.

Washington provided money and arms including even Stinger missiles capable of shooting down Soviet helicopters.

But it was Islamic Mujahideen fighters who would fire them.

Among the many foreigners drawn to Afghanistan was a young, wealthy Saudi called Osama Bin Laden.

Long before 9/11, he would have been seen by neo-conservatives in Washington as one of their foot soldiers, helping fight America's cause.

After nearly 10 years of fighting, Soviet troops pulled out of Afghanistan.

Both the neo-conservatives and the Islamists believed that it is they who defeated the "evil empire" and now had the power to transform the world.

But both failed in their revolutions.

In response, the neo-conservatives invented a new fantasy enemy, Bill Clinton, focusing on the scandal surrounding him and Monica Lewinsky.

Meanwhile, the Islamists descend into a desperate cycle of violence and terror to try to persuade the people to follow them.

Out of all this comes the seeds of the strange world of fantasy, deception, violence and fear in which we now live.

In the wake of the shock and panic created by the devastating attack on the World Trade Center on 11 September, 2001, the neo-conservatives reconstructed the radical Islamists in the image of their last evil enemy, the Soviet Union - a sinister web of terror run from the centre by Osama Bin Laden in his lair in Afghanistan.

There are dangerous and fanatical individuals and groups around the world who have been inspired by extreme Islamist ideas, and who will use the techniques of mass terror - the attacks on America and Madrid make this only too clear.

But the nightmare vision of a uniquely powerful hidden organisation waiting to strike our societies is an illusion.

Wherever one looks for this al-Qaeda organisation, from the mountains of Afghanistan to the "sleeper cells" in America, the British and Americans are chasing a phantom enemy.

But the reason that no-one questions the illusion is because this nightmare enemy gives so many groups new power and influence in a cynical age - and not just politicians.

Those with the darkest imaginations have now become the most powerful.

what???? 0?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
181 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Not even worth dicussing. I laugh at you.
why do you laugh? Don't you realise how screwed we are?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
917 Posts
And I actually clicked this thread again. I feel stupid. I might as well make fun of you while I'm here.

You actually believe that 9/11, the Madrid bmobings, two wars, billions of dollars, international tension, 100+ American casualtiess in Iraq, and numerous other ist activites are all the product of some conspiracy to keep Bush in power? I konw some people think Bush is an idiot, but an evil genius bent on destroying the world and keeping power all the while keeping everyone but somehow you in the dark? That's something new.

So tell me, oh enlightened one- how come BBC was the first to know about this? Wait a minute, they weren't! This is drivel that they decided to spit back out for a quick boost in the polls, or most likely, a story to fill some air time.

Do you actually believe that 3 years of highyl investigative reporting went into this? No definitive numbers on the first Afghani war vs the USSR, no direct quotes, no specifics on this "international treror network" they claim that the current administration is fooling us with.

Can you actually believe an article that thinks that the Lewenski Scandal could actually have that much of an effect on a vast, secret, world-wide conspriracy that has supposedly lasted for 20 years and has involved every president in the US since then, and every leader in the Middle East?

This story obviously took 0 effort, and BBC should be VERY ashamed they ran it. I hope they run an apology.
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top