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Discussion Starter #481
you really think they would produce the cf in house rather then source it from a company that manufactures it large scale?
Again, more costs to do this not to mention now you are taking quality control out of your own hands, chances are yes, this is the route a paintball company would take but also, how many companies are currently producing cf frames? 0 that I am aware of. There are barely any cf barrels out there and all of which are in the top end price range for barrels and those are just simple tubes, you want to produce a grip frame with contours, curves, holes and mounting points AND have it be priced competitively? Ya good luck with that one thumup:
 

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your forgetting, you wouldn't outsource the frame production, only the CARBON FIBER HAIR USED IN IT. I guarantee they source their fiber glass they use in the composite from an outside company.

again, they would purchase the BASE carbon fiber material, just like the purchase for the plastic used in the composite is an outside purchase as well, it doesn't make fiscal sense to purchase a plastics chemical foundry solely for paintball production just like making the individual carbon fiber hairs wouldn't make fiscal sense for gun production, it is additional cost to run, and not very profitable if only used for PB.

whereas purchasing the fiberglass or CF hairs, and plastic/nylon pellets to melt down and mix together and then mold makes MUCH more sense. it is an expense now and is a ax write off now.
 

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maybe if it is layered CF like you see on a lot of carbon fiber stuff, but CF reinforced composite just uses CF fibers, similar to the fiber glass strands, it actually isn't all that expensive.
I'm gonna come back to this. And ELI5 how a CF strand makes a structure stronger please. Cuz now i'm lost
 

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Discussion Starter #484 (Edited)
Dude you have no idea how the production industry works. Here is a short lesson from someone who has worked in a production field. I worked at a precision metals grinding shop for a while, if you needed something ground down to a specific tolerance that is what we did. Many of our jobs were +/- .001 (a standard piece of printer paper is .005 to give you some reference) One of our larger jobs was for airbus, airbus is one of the largest and most wealthy companies in the world, now why would they not just do the work themselves? why outsorce it? If someone else is already set up to do the work and they can do it well, as long as the cost isnt outlandish you dont bother buying the million dollar machines to build the $50 part. Probably over time airbus would eventually see a profit doing it themselves but you also have to take into consideration they would need to bring on new staff to run these grinding machines not to mention take up space in a factory

on the flip side we also did knives. Spyderco was one of the larger customers there, basically almost all spyderco knives that say "made in the USA" came out of our shop. Spyderco is a fairly large name in the knives world and besides final assembly and sharpening they did 0 of their own production. They would have one company cut out the knife blanks, they would come to us and we would put the bevels on them (the shape) another company would make the handles and another would do the plastic parts. All of this was shipped to spyderco and they would do the final assembly. This is for a company that is probably comparable to someone like tippmann or spyder in paintball

your forgetting, you wouldn't outsource the frame production, only the CARBON FIBER HAIR USED IN IT. I guarantee they source their fiber glass they use in the composite from an outside company.

but you are forgetting they ALREADY outsource plastics production, if by your logic they should do everything in house then why not produce their own screws? all they would need after all is the steel to make them. Why not produce their own rubber grips? They would just need the rubber to make them. It is not like a shippment of fibers shows up at the door and someone is like "yup I need this and a screwdriver to make frames today" they have to invest millions in not just the mold machinery but the support of these machines as well (pumps, compressors, possibly plumbing training staff, replacement parts etc) Unless they can run these machines 24/7 to meet an unrealistic demand there is much more cost than profit involved in making a $50 grip frame

ok lets look at a company that already deals with CF and fibers. Ninja air, if not the largest producer of tanks in the industry then very close to it. They do not produce their own tanks in house. They produce the regulators and do final assembly but the tanks themselves come from outside

again, they would purchase the BASE carbon fiber material, just like the purchase for the plastic used in the composite is an outside purchase as well, it doesn't make fiscal sense to purchase a plastics chemical foundry solely for paintball production just like making the individual carbon fiber hairs wouldn't make fiscal sense for gun production, it is additional cost to run, and not very profitable if only used for PB.
two problems with this

1) it also doesnt make fiscal sense to purchase a material that is not needed. There is nothing wrong with the composite plastics they already use so why should a company then spend money mixing CF fibers into a material that doesnt need it?

2) you are not talking about just purchasing the base material, again, these things are already outsourced, so they would be purchasing all the materials needed to make the frames as well as the CF or fiber materials

whereas purchasing the fiberglass or CF hairs, and plastic/nylon pellets to melt down and mix together and then mold makes MUCH more sense. it is an expense now and is a ax write off now.
again why? why make something stronger when it doesnt need to be? you are just adding cost to the production

not to mention I am not claiming to be an expert on CF and Fiberglass or anything but i HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt just throwing a bunch of fibers in the plastic is as simple as it sounds. Back to when I was working at the grinding shop, differences in the steel would force us to use different grinding pads, these pads could easily cost $2500 for a set and that was just steel, we also did aluminum, brass, titanium and alloys that sometimes we wouldnt even know the composition of (trade secrets) so there were racks of grinding pads, many of which were specific to 1 or 2 machines. At any given time there was probably a minimum of around $75k just in grinding pads sitting around the shop. Production stuff that sounds simple rarely is.

I dont think you realize how much stuff in paintball is already outsourced. Dye, one of the largest companies in paintball does their own metals production, Planet eciplse does as well but this is not nearly true for the whole industry. Many of the smaller companies have outside venders do their own milling and the bodies are shipped to them for final assembly

nobody makes their own circuit boards for markers
soft goods? ya right, its not like dye or empire has a textile factory next to the production floors
basically anything plastic forget about it
screws, nuts, o-rings, solenoids batteries the list goes on

for the vast vast majority of paintball, if it is not aluminum it is almost a guarantee that an outside vendor produced it and even if it is aluminum there is no guarantee that the company who's name is on it actually made it (although it is more likely)
 

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Discussion Starter #486
Sure did, spyderco tries a few other shops from time to time but it's about a 95% chance that if it says made in the usa it came from the shop in Kent wa. I managed to get my groomsmen all a knife at about half price for my wedding because of that job.

We also did a lot of busse stuff, their metal is crap though
 

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Discussion Starter #488
I believe so, we didn't always know the names of the knives and spyderco has about 5 different blades in that shape and we did thousands and thousands of blades in that shape. Chances are yes they came out of the shop in Kent
 

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wow.. you started off saying they are doing it in house.. then turn around and say they aren't which is exactly what I have been saying the whole time!

the plastics and fibers are both mixed in house, the base fibers and plastics are not made in house. exchanging CF for the fiberglass is a base materials swap out, with a little added cost cause the base material is more.


this debate is something i'm done with, like WOW.... really...
 

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Discussion Starter #490
wow.. you started off saying they are doing it in house.. then turn around and say they aren't
No, go quote it if you can find it. I never said a paintball manufacturer does plastics or composites manufacturing in house because as far as I am aware none of them do, paintball manufacturers (markers specifically) do metal work and final assembly thats it. If it is not made from aluminum chances are EXTREMELY high that it came from an outside vendor


the plastics and fibers are both mixed in house, the base fibers and plastics are not made in house. exchanging CF for the fiberglass is a base materials swap out, with a little added cost cause the base material is more.
ok 2 problems with this

1) you are speaking like someone already does fiberglass reinforced composites, they dont so it is not a matter of exchanging the materials because the fiberglass is not there to begin with

2) you still have not answered the question of why would anyone bother doing this, there is nothing wrong with the composites the way they are so why should I as a manufacturer bother spending more money on fiberglass or CF when there is going to be no benefit?
 

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1) you are speaking like someone already does fiberglass reinforced composites, they dont so it is not a matter of exchanging the materials because the fiberglass is not there to begin with

2) you still have not answered the question of why would anyone bother doing this, there is nothing wrong with the composites the way they are so why should I as a manufacturer bother spending more money on fiberglass or CF when there is going to be no benefit?


Somewhere he was referencing AR15 Lowers i think
 

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you make banging my head against a wall look like a more progressive goal.

the composite frames on planet eclipse Gteks and Eteks, are glass reinforced Nylon composite. this composite is mixed IN HOUSE. in order to be glass reinforced it would HAVE to be fiberglass,

you CAN get CF strands like you can get fiberglass strands when you mix the two base materials together, I suppose you could buy premixed composite from an outside company and heat it up in house so it is pliable for the injection molding process. but this creates a possibility for large variations in composite structure, and therefore multiple composite frames with significantly LESS reinforcement. then others.

mixing in house can assist in the creation of consistency I will just ask Jack wood if they mix the base materials in house for their composite frames.
 

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you make banging my head against a wall look like a more progressive goal.

the composite frames on planet eclipse Gteks and Eteks, are glass reinforced Nylon composite. this composite is mixed IN HOUSE. in order to be glass reinforced it would HAVE to be fiberglass,

you CAN get CF strands like you can get fiberglass strands when you mix the two base materials together, I suppose you could buy premixed composite from an outside company and heat it up in house so it is pliable for the injection molding process. but this creates a possibility for large variations in composite structure, and therefore multiple composite frames with significantly LESS reinforcement. then others.

mixing in house can assist in the creation of consistency I will just ask Jack wood if they mix the base materials in house for their composite frames.
You're actually gonna message Jack? Please report back when he responds (i'm not kidding, he's pretty good about answering questions when he decides to open up his inbox)
 

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Discussion Starter #495
you make banging my head against a wall look like a more progressive goal.

the composite frames on planet eclipse Gteks and Eteks, are glass reinforced Nylon composite. this composite is mixed IN HOUSE. in order to be glass reinforced it would HAVE to be fiberglass,

you CAN get CF strands like you can get fiberglass strands when you mix the two base materials together, I suppose you could buy premixed composite from an outside company and heat it up in house so it is pliable for the injection molding process. but this creates a possibility for large variations in composite structure, and therefore multiple composite frames with significantly LESS reinforcement. then others.

mixing in house can assist in the creation of consistency I will just ask Jack wood if they mix the base materials in house for their composite frames.
how do you know they do this in house? Im not saying you are wrong this is just the first I have heard of it if it is true

regardless where is the advantage for PE switching to CF? it is just going to cost more and not provide any benefits over the way they are currently doing their frames. I know they do this for AR lowers but those also see forces that never happen in paintball and while they are much stronger than they probably need to be, already PE's frames are already much stronger than they need to be so where is the advantage in making them even stronger?
 

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straight from jack:

Well, we don't do any molding in-house. We sub-contract all our plastics.

But I believe the factory we use mix in-house. But don't quote me on that.

Jack

so that answers that.. kind of.
 

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Discussion Starter #497
Ya I would expect the place that does their plastics to mix it themselves. It would not make a whole lot of sense for the plastics factory to pay someone to melt the components down, mix them then form pellets or whatever just to ship to the molding factory to then be melted down again

thanks for contacting him, that is cool to know

I am not surprised at his response in not knowing though, it was the same way at the grinding shop I worked at, our customers did not care what we did as long as the finish product was to them and as ordered on time.
 

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Hi,
I´m very new to paintball. Just played with some friends last weekend and thought it was really fun. I've been thinking about getting my own gear, that's how i found this post and forum. I've been skimming through this content and it made me a lot wiser. I liked that there were some quite affordable choices in here. I found this guide aswell, https://paintimpact.com/what-to-wear-paintballing/ via this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJIkFZznBxA. But i thought they had rather expensive choices only.
I'd like to buy a decent marker, not the cheapest one. But something that can last me for a while. What do you recommend? And, is there any other safety gear that I should/must have(except mask) for speedball.
Thanks!
 

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for speedball you'll need a pod pack, pods, and i'd highly recommend cleats. simple soccer cleats will do

from the list you posted, i'd skip the neck protector. jersey's are highly optional. the upside to them is they're easy to clean and usually are harder to mess up than your regular clothes. pants i'd recommend because they'll stand up better to diving and sliding around the field. Slide shorts you could probably skip until you get into sliding on your hips on the regular. even then its personal preference. I know people who love them, but i don't own a pair. elbow pads you don't need to start but i'd get them for a) the protection and b) it helps with bounces. kneepads are same thing as slider shorts. even less so though because i don't believe that sliding on your knees is safe in the long run. learn to slide properly. i don't use gloves, but some people can't play without them. personal preference.

headwear is totally up to you. sandanas can keep the sun off your neck, headbands help with bounces off your forehead as well as absorbing sweat.

tank cover totally not necessary. and a bag is totally up to you
 

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Discussion Starter #500
starting out I really wouldnt worry too much about clothing. grab some old jeans, a long sleeve shirt and some shoes that have some decent tread on them and hit the field

mask is most important though

my thoughts and comments:
I play in some very aggressive tread trail running shoes, I used to play in boots but they really slow you down. paintball pants are the most expensive piece of paintball clothing, I would also say they are the thing that makes the most difference. Keep an eye out for used gear, I got my first pants/jersey for I think $50, the next set of pants I got I paid $85 for and they were new in package but the model was 2 years out of date. I dont wear neck protection, I do wear a head wrap. starting out I would go with a long sleeve shirt or 2, the baggyer the better. I wear slider PANTS they go past my knee and have built in knee pads (knee pads are not as good as dedicated ones) I wear elbow pads on occasion depending on the weather and what I am playing that day.

for the marker, I am a fan of the azodin blitz for players starting out, great features on a budget
 
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